Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1])
	by maskin.oden.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA03827
	for <dlanor@oden.se>; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 05:16:11 +0100 (MET)
Received: from [127.0.0.1 (athe-d15.otenet.gr [195.167.120.64])
	by athserv.otenet.gr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10429
	for <dlanor@oden.se (Ronald Anderson)>; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:17:42 +0200 (EET)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:17:42 +0200 (EET)
Message-Id: <199711060417.GAA10429@athserv.otenet.gr>
To: dlanor@oden.se (Ronald Andersson)
From: papval@otenet.gr (Vassilis Papathanassiou)
Subject: STinG (and more)
X-Mailer: NEWSie Version 0.82 (Atari)
X-UIDL: c96d7a424e45fa745deb488f64cd6865


Hi Ronald

I hope your FALCON is now in good 'health' and back to business.
I'm using Newsie 0.82 now. Experiments show that it works, and despite
some redraw problems (only under MagiC i hope), it's good.

----- snip ----- re: PPP bombs
> finally managed to kill that bug.
>
I believe so. I had no problem the last 15 days.

----- snip ----- re: Pithagoras theory
> Nothing so far-reaching.  I just meant that no mathematics, no matter
> how advanced, can ever simulate the way humans formulate their thoughts.
>
This is true, this theory deals with words. It's very simple but it
works. It's impossible to aplly it in any other language other than
Hellenic (ancient Hellenic to be exact) so i'll not try to explain it,
but take my word on that, it works.

----- snip ----- re: PHILLOGIC
> Ok, so the main goal is to educate people in the use of the language to
> the point where they can themselves translate between these ancient texts
> and modern languages.  Right ?
>
Yes, this is the general idea, but keep in mind that most people want to
be able to read the originals, and there are also tools for this.

----- snip ----- re: World maps
> Yes, and some also had an uncanny ability to travel far distances and get
> to the correct places even without maps in many cases.  This is something
> most peoples today have forgotten how to do, although a few retain it.
>
Since things like the above are written in 'mythologies', seems to me we
have a long road to travel, until we get there (again).

----- snip ----- re: Hellenic wars
> It's really quite well documented, though not in 'normal' history books.
>
I don't doubt that, i'll just ask for more info.

----- snip ----- re: Our interests
> Reading has always been an important interest for me too, and though I
> never took any formal degrees I too started in computers through being
> already deeply interested in electronics (both analog and digital).
> Music is quite important to me too, although I have never given it the
> time needed to become proficient at making or playing music myself.
>
I hate to say i have over 20 years to lay my hands on a guitar, that i was
playing from 8 to 15 years, but i hear music (mainly sixties and seventies)
a lot. And at the same time i check my hand-made hi-fi system. For a year
now i also have a DOLBY Prologic system for movies. And speaking of that,
i think FALCON is ideal for programming a prologic system (of course
it needs 3 more D to A converters).

> >(in fact i hacked flight simulator II and added several new
> >options and the ability to play in 640x400x16 colours on the faclon.
>
> I never have had a really good flight sim, so I have never felt motivated
> to dig into them, but I have done similar 'hacking' in other programs.
> My favourite computer game is Civilization, to which I have added three
> new difficulty levels and made various other improvements and bug fixes.
> eg: I removed Americans replacing them by Nordics, since after all there
>     were no Americans (in the modern sense) in 4000 BC (game start).
>
That's really interesting (and great fun i believe). I have seen only
reviews of civilization, saying it was a great game.
I also did a 'hack' in Kick-off, it doesn't crash in corners, and if i
want, my players have maximum abilities (stamina, passing, shooting etc)

> >Then i did some DSP 3D code but due to lack of time...
>
> In my case it's even worse...  I haven't coded any DSP stuff at all,
> though I have meant to get into that too for quite some time now.
>
DSP is really fast and interesting in programming, but unfortunately the
comunication between CPU and DSP is not so fast. So a solution is to do
enough things in the DSP, and get the results in regural intervals. In any
case, with 3D matrix calculations, it's unbeatable.

> >Is it time to say i'm now at 38, married, with two lovely kids and
> >crazy enough to go against Microsoft? (and many others!)
>
> Ok.  I'm 42 myself, single, and detest Microsoft vehemently too.
>
So, there is still hope. I mean we are now mature enough not to change
sides easily, or be pushed by the 'reality'.

> Sounds rather neat, despite the 'PC' connection.  In practice it's
> very hard to work with computers proffessionally today and avoid
> the PCs entirely.
>
I'm afraid this is true, but at least i try hard.

> >That was the time i 'loved' PCs so much! Many problems (hard and
> >software), and totally non compatible with Hellenic character sets.
>
> Actually the latter is merely a matter of software, and I have seen
> some PC software packages capable of handling any character sets.
> eg: Syrian, Arabic etc.
>
Now yes, but until 1991 (and later), where the 'DOS' days. And since i
started PHILLOGIC with Turbo Pascal 4, i also had severe problems, and
i ended up with a soft character set, working only in graphic modes.

----- snip ----- re: Telepathy
> >It will take a lot of hard work to find this answer. Especially if one
> >follows today's trend 'make money - watch TV - die', then it'll take
> >much more lifes to get it!
>
> Actually that trend leads away from it, so the time needed is eternal...
> But hopefully modern culture will not get stuck in that rut that long.
> In fact it can't, because then it will not survive very long.
>
You don't know how mutch i hope so.

> >> I don't bore easily ;-)
> >> At least not from the same things others expect me to.
> >>
> >Which are?
>
> Well, that varies, but for some reason most people do not find
> mathematics, comparative linguistics or even cultural anecdotes
> from ancient times to be very entertaining, whereas I do.
>
Hmm, i'm afraid that's also my case, it's difficult at our days to find
people with such interests.

----- snip ----- re: Philosophy vs STinG !
> >Ok, after we have a perfectly working STinG with all it's clients and
> >servers runing smoothly and at lighting speeds and ...
> >(just joking, this will take us to the next millenium!)
>
> Well, that is only a bit over 2 years now, so you may be right...
> ;-)
>
Given the fact that English is not our native language, at least we can
continue to discuss non-STinG matters some times.

----- snip ----- re: Biblical time tables
>
> There are many groups who do this, usually for religious reasons.
>
> Several of those groups draw the line at either beginning or end of
> the year 2000, a bit like earlier millenarians did 1000 years ago.
> Some few hedge their bets by various calendar adjustments.
>
Yes, i'm well aware of those discussions. We'll wait and see...

----- snip ----- re: Gods inside UFOs
> That is a possibility that I do not completely rule out, although it
> actually raises more questions than it answers.  There is a definite
> relationship between human beings and other creatures of this world,
> too close to be explained by parallel evolution.  We can of course
> solve that by assuming that all life on this planet was 'seeded' by
> colonization ships from other star systems, but all of this remains
> speculation while no proof is available.
>
Sure, 'real' proofs are not so easy to be found, but Hellenic philosophists
were clear when they talked about 'operations' to existing human beings.
The subject is covered in many books, and it's very large to analyze it
here. Note that even at philogic.gif i sent you, Platon is talking for
ONE God, and then he says that people (not only Hellenic people),
'invented' Gods! (and some other interesting things). He also knew how
long lasts a day on the moon! How ?
I can also add Aristotelis (after the physics), Orpheus, and others
knowing such things. (all those at about 600 to 300 BC).

----- snip ----- re: Modern technology
> >If you think we are technologically advanced, think again.
>
> Compared to what we know from the last couple of thousand years we
> definitely are, and probably for quite some time longer even.  It
> would take a very long time for all (or almost all) trace of such a
> civilization to disappear, even if it was destroyed by nuclear war.
> And such a disaster would leave clues of its own too.
>
Yes, and we are siting on a bomb (i wish it was an ATARI bomb). We use
nuclear power and weapons (stupidly), we use petrolium to poison our
planet, not to mension all the 'modern' methods of producing food
(ie cancer), the forest destruction, acid rains, etc, etc. If this is
civilization, thanks, i'll not take. Note that i'm not at all against
progress or science, i only wish the motivation was not money.
As for traces of previous civilizations, i think there are many, only
they are more ecological (for example no plastic, that it could take some
million years to disappear!)

> >I'm sure you also have 'legends' and 'myths' saying very strange
> >things about 'Gods', 'battles in the sky', etc.
>
> Yes we do, and describing various artifacts of the gods' with some
> very strange properties too.  Like the ship 'Skidbladner' owned
> by the god Balder, which could be folded 'into itself' until it
> fit in a pouch, yet could be unfolded indefinitely to take any
> amount of passengers and cargo traveling through sky or sea.
>
Well, that's a good point to start searching. After all, nothing is
impossible. Platon (again) said : Thinking is remembering. (or to be
precise, thoughts are memories.)

> >They are so many (in every tribe i know of) that even if they are
> >reproductions of the same events, at least they need a closer
> >examination.
>
> I agree, but unfortunately two attitudes predominate amongst those
> who discuss these subjects, and both are equally wrong.  One is to
> uncritically accept everything said as literal truth, disregarding
> proof and/or indications to the contrary.  The other is a totally
> set disbelief which will not be budged by any proof whatever.
>
> The very fact that these two attitudes are so common makes it very
> hard for those seriously interested in finding the truth to discuss
> such things publicly and be taken seriously.
>
I'm afraid this is the case in many other subjects, ie people want
white or black, but as far as i'm concerned, i don't give a dime for
what they believe.

> ----- snip ----- re: Computers and culture
> >
> >This is also correct. ( what are we doing with computers? ! )
>
> I don't quite follow your parenthesis here...
> Sensible people use the best tools they can get for the things they
> do, and for many things done today computers are the _only_ tools.
>
> Perhaps you refer to the unfortunate fact that many consider the
> interests in 'hard science' subjects (eg: computers) to conflict
> somehow with an interest in such subjects as cultural history etc.
> But that is actually a very recent prejudice, not at all common
> in older cultures, and evidently not shared by either you or me.
>
I was joking, although i have meet many 'hard scientists' that don't
even want to hear for things like these.

----- snip ----- re: 'Barbarians' and 'civilized'
> >I'm absolutely certain that this is the case. And some day i think
> >we must ask the 'experts' to define who is barbarian and who is
> >not. I'm also tired with the 'labels' they put in humans. But it
> >needs an open mind to realize that every human is different.
>
> So it does, and I think we must (reluctantly) accept that only a
> minority of any culture have ever managed to keep an open mind.
>
I'm afraid that's true.

> ----- snip ----- re: legends and myths of Hellas
> Yep.  Of nordic prechristian stories only a small remnant remains, and
> most of those are Icelandic (which is how they survived) meaning that
> they are not representative of those of the general nordic population.
>
> This is because Iceland was settled by refugee chieftains and kings
> (with their households of course) escaping from Harald Haarfagres
> unification of Norway.  We know enough to say that the populations
> of both Norway and Sweden held very different views from the Icelandic
> ones (Thor being more important than Oden etc), but since most actual
> writing documenting this was burned or otherwise destroyed, we have
> lost the detailed knowledge forever.
>
Burned or destroyed documents is always a sad story. We have thousands of
burned libraries here, but very serious sources are talking about guys
that first stole and then burned the libraries. Most of them the first
500 years AC.

----- snip ----- re: Democracy
> >You think so? Well, let's say that i suddently found out that i'm not
> >very happy with what we now call 'civilization' and 'democracy'.
>
> There are serious problems and drawbacks of both, but they are still the
> best alternatives available right now, though we need them to change.
>
> Sometimes people berate me for saying that 'democracy' can be wrong,
> but no implementation of it was ever perfect, and even if it was so
> it is based on the fallacy that the majority is always right.
>
You are right, but demo-cracy (been a hellenic word) means that people
are responsible for their decisions. How many people ? A small town.
Who said that democracy is valid for whole nations ? If democracy expands,
then it's called dictatorship with legal mantle. I know it caused wars
between cities here in tha past, but they were local wars. Now whole
nations are under the threat of war if 10 people or so disagree.
(and we are still one of those nations)

> It is important to remember that even when a majority has the right to
> make the decisions it is never guaranteed to be factually right too.
>
> Or as I sometimes put it:
>
>         One hundred billion flies can not be wrong:  "Eat shit!".
>
Really good ! Majority also says: Go out and buy a PC. Are they right?

> An even more serious fallacy is that the opinions of a majority are
> quite likely to include many unfair prejudices, and that means that
> majority decisions based on those opinions will be morally wrong.
>
This is also true.

----- snip ----- re: Microsoft
We can safely ignore'em.

> ----- snip ----- re: BNET_TCP comments
> >
> >!!!
>
> What I meant is that since I am used to puzzle out disassembled code,
> I am not entirely dependent on comments, though they can help a lot.
>
I'm sorry, this was a mark for me to answer, but then i wrote it at the
end, and forgot it. Since i'm also used to read not commented disassemblies,
i can unsterstand you completely.

> >> ----- snip ----- re: FTP-Server
> >
> >> Btw: are you soon going to release another version?  I think I remember
> >>      you mentioning that a few weeks ago...
> >>
> >It's coming, it's coming! And it also runs with BNET_TCP installed.
> >(although AFTP crashes when it tries to access it, if it's more than
> >one machine away! )
>
> Huh ?!?  Why is that ?
>
> To aFTP the position of a server in the network should not even be known,
> and all valid IP addresses should be equal.
>
FTP Server 1.02 has been released. I have sent it to Peter last Sunday.
It has password generation, multiple paths and permissions etc.
As for aFTP, i don't know. With 2 machines it works fine (serial or midi)
With three, no. What puzzles me more is that sometimes TT bombs when aFTP
from the FALCON (and through ST) is trying to change a dir. I found the
bus error to be in STING.PRG, a routine of which is called from TCP.STX.
BNET_TCP was NOT installed. I don't have more info, since i don't have
any STinG sources, and disassembling something that i know you have access
to, is a waste of time.
>
> ----- snip ----- re: BNET_TCP false starts
> Well, I plan to rearrange things so that no single machine can mess
> up anything for others, but your parenthesis indicates that you too
> will do this.  I see no problem with our working on it as different
> implementations, and I hope you feel the same way about it.  If you
> like we can arrange future swaps of the sources too, so we can take
> over improvements from each other, though as yet I've made none.
>
Sure we can do so. If i have something new, i'll send it to you.

> ----- snip ----- re: Freedom
> Then perhaps you should stick to that old Freedom version then.  The
> main improvement in the new version is of course that it also is a
> CPX server, but WDIALOG+COPS also serves that purpose very well, and
> though there have been compatibility problems these may be solved now.
> Wilfried Behne just sent me a WDialog 1.98 beta that solves all the
> problems I had (and had reported to him).
>
I downloaded Freedom 2.02 last night, installed it on the TT, and then
transfered Freedom2.tos, thin120d.lzh and some other stuff to the FALCON
(more than 1MB), using the FTP Server. No problems! Maybe they have
fixed something ? Check it. Thing 1.20 is also good news. But i'll wait
for an english version.

I haven't even heard about Desert Drain. Where can i find it?

Well, we had 4 earthquakes in Athens today! (and two yesterday). So if
it takes long for my next mail...

Regards       Vassilis

.
