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Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:47:50 +0200
From: Vassilis <papval@otenet.gr>
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To: Ronald Andersson <dlanor@oden.se>
Subject: Re: BNET_TCP
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Hi Ronald
>
> Unfortunately this sort of thing also happens to all of us at times.
> On one occasion I was locked out for over a week due to a switch to
> slightly nonstandard PPP, which SERIAL.STX could not cope with.
>
Shame on me, i'm still using the PC to send mail. My only excuse
been that until the 15 Oct version of STinG, PPP bombed out.

> >> Sounds like an interesting job, what's it about really ?
> >
> >Those 27 letters were connected with Pithagora's number-theory which
> >'produces' new words, if you know the sum of another word.
>
> Producing words is one thing, but meaningful statements are another.
> These do not follow any simple mathematical rules.
>
I'm not sure i can follow this. You mean you know this theory to be
wrong or has to do with my bad english? Do you know any other
language that those rules can apply, or should i start refering to
thousands of examples that produce completely meaningful words in
English, but absolutely sensible Hellenic words?

> >Maybe a falcon screen shot
> >will tell you more (a thousand words!), want me to send you one?
>
> That may be better because I find it a bit hard to see how it works,
> and the purpose of it, from your description.
>
Now that i read it again, i agree, it's bad! Let's say it's a data
base of ancient texts (each 15 lines maximum) displayed in a window
in such a way that one can (using the keyboard or the mouse) select
sentences or words and depended on the mode, get information,
answer questions, etc, etc ( better now? )

> >> Something for historical education, or what ?
> >>
> >This is the multimedia part. It has notes, images, videos, sound etc
> >connected to certain parts of the ancient text. An interesting part
> >is the one called 'Parallel language evolution' which shows how the
> >Hellenic words were 'transfered' to other languages, for the moment
>
> So the whole project seeems (to me so far) to be mainly linguistically
> oriented, though it naturally touches on various subjects relating to
> the culture in which the language was used.  Right?
>
Yes, with more emphasis in syntactical analysis, so that the
translation is easier.

> >English, German, Italian and French. (and i don't mean logic, program,
> >phyco-anything, but many-many more not so obvious).
>
> Most european languages are quite closely related, and not just within
> the 'Germanic' or 'Latin' groups either.  This is unavoidable because
> the interaction of various peoples and tribes in ancient times was much
> more international than many people today realize.
>
This is also true, my sources are talking about unbelievable movements
between nations those days. Seems to me that our ancestors were
travelling too much! (and they also had some unexplainable detailed
earth maps!)

> For example, it is a fact that both Nordic and Celtic warrior tribes
> often served as mercenaries in many of the wars between Greek city-states.
>
Well, i don't know that, but i can ask the Phillogic team.

> >I'm afraid a said too much (i hope you haven't bored already)
>
> Don't worry, I have a fairly wide range of interests, and this does
> sound like an interesting project, though I probably have a very
> limited grasp of how it is actually used and how it is designed.
>
That's good, i also have many interests, some of them being reading,
designing and building audio amplifiers and speakers (normally i
graduated as an electronic engineer), music, flight simulators
(in fact i hacked flight simulator II and added several new
options and the ability to play in 640x400x16 colours on the faclon.
Then i did some DSP 3D code but due to lack of time...

Is it time to say i'm now at 38, married, with two lovely kids and
crazy enough to go against Microsoft? (and many others!)

As for Phillogic it started back in 1988 (mainly the phillological
work) and i joined them in late 1991 when i left Nixdorf computers
after the takeover from Siemens. There, i was responsible for the
UNIX systems -based on 68xxx and MIPS risc CPUs- and for the PCs.
That was the time i 'loved' PCs so much! Many problems (hard and
software), and totally non compatible with Hellenic character sets.

> >but i really like this project also, mainly because i found a lot of
> >answers to problems that we think are problems! For example STinG
> >is good but improving our telepathetic abilities is better!!!
>
> Are you saying you found a reliable answer for _how_ to do that...?
> I find that to be quite a chore, though I've been aware of the
> potential as far back as I can remember.
>
It will take a lot of hard work to find this answer. Especially if one
follows today's trend 'make money - watch TV - die', then it'll take
much more lifes to get it!

----- snip ----- re: Codebase 4
I'm afraid this is a 'close to the original' port. Codebase 4
consists of 112 'C' and 8 header files and some of them need changes
to work. But suppose you buy it and try to compile using ATARI libs.
It will not work. So, if you have any dbase needs (and can find a
dbase III manual or relevant book), just tell me. I find it useful
because i can ceate compatible dbases and indexes, it is relational,
has expressions etc. I have also written the conversion routines
to import and export from/to #!"@ PC.
>
> Well, 'Atari the company' is quite dead, but that does not say the same
> of us remaining Atarians.  We won't give up so easily, and what with
> the various compatibles (Medusa, Hades etc) still being produced and
> even newer models being designed right now, I do not expect the end
> of our 'Atari community' to come until well into the next millenium.
>
Couldn't agree more.

----- snip ----- re: MagiC and C
> the original singleTOS.  No compiler, and certainly not any of the
> ones available on microcomputers, can ever compete with a skillful
> human being in these things.
>
Reminds me some TOS source code i had seen many years ago. Not only
in C, but bad C (ok i'm not an expert) It was from Digital Research
with lots of PC code in it!

> >  Still not bored?
>
> I don't bore easily ;-)
> At least not from the same things others expect me to.
>
Which are?

> >We can say much more on those philosophical things!
>
> Sure, why not.
>
Ok, after we have a perfectly working STinG with all it's clients and
servers runing smoothly and at lighting speeds and ...
(just joking, this will take us to the next millenium!)

----- snip ----- re: Greece etc
> >(and not the last 3000, as many believe!)
>
> I fail to see why anyone would draw a line so close in time, unless
> it is based on those odd attempts to apply biblical time tables to
> the real world.
>
That's more than true, but who are they that apply those 'biblical
time tables' (i liked that!) And until when?

> Human beings similar to our kind have definitely existed for about
> two million years, because we have found a few remnants of them.
> They may have existed much longer than that, and only by the rarest
> chance would we ever find those remnants, because organic materials
> do not normally survive that long in recognizable form.
>
Hmm, that's difficult to prove. I believe that one day a spaceship
came and the play started. It's strengthen from the fact that 'God'
in Hellenic is 'Theos' and the verb 'Theo' means 'going up with great
speed'. Sure there are thousands others indications on the subject
but i consider this important because it's 'hidden' (also with
thousands others).

> So we do now that humans (as advanced as we except in technology)
> have lived through many ice ages.  And all remains we have found
> show that regardless of technology they had cultures and arts.
>
If you think we are technologically advanced, think again. I'm sure
you also have 'legends' and 'myths' saying very strange things about
'Gods', 'battles in the sky', etc. They are so many (in every tribe
i know of) that even if they are reproductions of the same events,
at least they need a closer examination.

> Some people have the odd idea that a culturally dominant people
> can pop out of nowhere, just because their dominance makes it
> appear so.  Some even think this of the Romans, due to the rapid
> growth of their power, even though it is well known that they
> had a long history as a subject people of the Tyrrhenians, that
> some now call Etruscans.
>
This is also correct. ( what are we doing with computers? ! )

> In fact all peoples have a long history, though some have lost
> track of theirs.  Many of my own people have completely lost all
> true knowledge of our pre-christian history and believe the silly
> propaganda that we were merely barbarians at that time.
>
I'm absolutely certain that this is the case. And some day i think
we must ask the 'experts' to define who is barbarian and who is
not. I'm also tired with the 'labels' they put in humans. But it
needs an open mind to realize that every human is different.

> But mere barbarians do not personally trade and travel across
> and beyond the world known to most other europeans, as we did.
>
I'm glad you don't believe silly propagandas, (i'm trying to forget
the 'history' i learned in school). As of barbarians, just watch the
international news, you'll find many.

> When the consequences of conversion broke our economy Germans
> took over our short-range trading routes, and this was how
> their 'Hansean' trade empire came into existence.
>
> The Greek tribes naturally also go back in time far beyond written
> history, and it stands to reason that a name as well founded in
> the legends and myths as Hellas can be no recent innovation. Those
> myths were ancient even when Rome was young after all.
>
Sure, and at least for Hellenic language, 'legend' is completelly
different from myth. 'MYTHologo' means transfer(?) historical events
without writing them, while legends, tails, etc can be anything.
(fantasy, science fiction etc). Does that mean that Hercules and
others were real? Who knows. One thing i know is that the guys with
the 'biblical time tables' took care to leave us in the dark.

> >Don't get me wrong, i'm just searching for the truth, and today the
> >truth is unfortunately not good (eg Microsoft :-)
>
> That is really a misstatement, though it is true that they are dominant.
>
You think so? Well, let's say that i suddently found out that i'm not
very happy with what we now call 'civilization' and 'democracy'. And
believe me, we have seen nothing yet. As for Microsoft i can hardly
consider it a computer company. First their income is not 'normal'.
(This is not my discovery, financial cycles declare it). Second they
spend their money in genetic (DNA) projects(!), satelites, etc
(do you really believe they need 760 low orbit satelites for internet
services?)

> I'm not overly fond of IBM either, but what Microsoft did stinks !
>
And it continues to do so. I wonter what windows 98 will look like
now that very few things have left for them to steal.

> ----- snip ----- re: BNET_TCP

> No hurry.  Just as long as I don't get it any later than yesterday ;-)
>
> Seriously though, I'm quite used to dealing with code commented sparsely,
> or in the case of disassemblies not commented at all, so you don't have
> to produce any literary masterpieces in the margins.  Some clues will do.
>
!!!

> ----- snip ----- re: FTP-Server

> Btw: are you soon going to release another version?  I think I remember
>      you mentioning that a few weeks ago...
>
It's coming, it's coming! And it also runs with BNET_TCP installed.
(although AFTP crashes when it tries to access it, if it's more than
one machine away! )

> >I have many problems with CAB 1.5 and CAB 2.0 Is it CAB.OVL ?
>
> That is very hard to say, not knowing which you have.  For me 1.2619 works
> rather well, though I don't really exercize it a lot by 'surfing' around.
> I have too many other things to do.  (Like writing mails for many hours.)
>
Sorry, this is the one i have. And having many problems.

----- snip ----- re: BNET_TCP false starts

> I have not had any transfer failures in mid-file, but I have had many
> 'false starts' where the transmission was aborted at an early stage.
> That also shows up in BNET_TCP, as a tendency of having to click many
> times on a folder to open it.
>
I'm having that problem only if i kill BNET_TCP and start it again.
Never when i start all computers and run BNET_TCP for the first time.
(and also never in file transfers, the TCP socket remains open after
the first connection, as you'll see in the sources).
So it can be a BNET_TCP bug. There is no 'keep alive' mechanism, so
if someone closes unexpectedly, the other machines can't notice that.
(but this will be corrected).

> ----- snip ----- re: GEMDOS Fwrite vs BIOS Bconout for serial ports
Ok, i'm covered by the answer. I can live with 76800, in fact
transfering 270K (ie STING.LZH) takes about 50 secs, and coffee was
invented for such things!

> ----- snip ----- re: Ethernet
> >For the record i had started it in 1995 to use it with BNETWORK
> >(now BNET_TCP!) but never found the time to finish. (but i still have
> >two
> >ethernet adapters and two home-made PCBs that convert the cartridge port
> >to a full parallel port).
>
> I believe a dual parallel port approach would suit my needs best.  Trying
> to handle bidirectional traffic on the same data lines (like in PLIP) gives
> to much efficiency loss due to timing problems and data 'collision'. With
> two ports, one for input and another for output, most of those problems
> disappear, and effective speed would rise dramatically.
>
I'm talking about 'pocket ethernet adapters' that connect to parallel
 ports, but since we don't have all signals to our ports, an adapter
 is needed. Of course the 'dual parallel port approach' will be
 much faster.

> ----- snip ----- re: Your (not needed) defense against bug suspicion
>
I'm not surprised by bugs poping up from nowhere, better say i was
worried it didn't work at once.
As of Freedom, i'm sorry, they just lost a registration. But i'm
still using 1.15 and have no problems with STinG so far.

> >1: Try to use single-TOS, with the original desktop, this way you'll see
> >drive P: and open it's window etc. (at least for 1 machine)
>
> Yes, I can see it and open the window, but it consistently bombs if I
> try to open any subdirectory.  There may again be some other cause for
> that, but as yet I have not succeded in transferring anything over
> BNET_TCP running under singleTOS.  The success above was under MagiC.
>
Ooops, that's true. It bombs if the single-TOS host tries to open the
connection! But if you connect to this host from MagiC, then it works
fine (folders, file transfers, everything!). I'm working on that.

> Are you absolutely sure you never ever call GEMDOS from within GEMDOS..?
> I know that works in MagiC but it is guaranteed to bomb under singleTOS.
>
Yes and no :-) I need the DTA from Fsfirst and Fsnext, but at this
time Gemdos has another stack.

Well, the big moment! The sources of BNET_TCP. Looking at them from
'outside', i can say i'm not very proud of them. I see lot's of
stupid naming convensions, and space for improvement. But since it
came from BNETWORK which is actually a 1993 started project, it's
understandable (at least for me!) It was the time a had switched from
GFA basic to C, and i had also spent hundrents or hours dissasembling,
checking, sleeping with ATARI INTERNALS and the DEVPAC manual, you
know, things like that. Then came SYSMON which made my life easier.
Then came Mag!X which again caused trouble. Problems with preemptive
multitasking, Pexec, etc. An invaluable tool for ROM dissasembly
(and others) was EASY RIDER 4 wich i took in Hannover (hi Peter :-)
Expensive, considering the German manuals, but really good (i'm sure
you have it). Since you're in a hurry, here it is, with sparse
comments. (far from 'literar masterpieces in the margins'!)

I hope (in fact i'm sure) you'll make it better and more useful.
Well, what else? I'll wait for bugs. Good luck!

Regards    Vassilis

Last minute before launch!
--------------------------
The bombs from single-TOS are only happen from 68000 cpus (ie my STE)
It has TOS 1.62 4MB RAM and i run it with minimum setup, ie XCONTROL,
original desktop, STinG, BNET_TCP (and now AMON.PRG in auto).
The crash is due to destroyed stack.
It happens in Fsfirst (P:\HOST\*.*, x);
But this is the point where the connection is made (see BNET_TCP.C,
routine L_fsfirst ). Calling this routine with the above parameters,
decides whether it will open a connection or not. If it needs to
call 'open_connection' ie TCP_open it bombs. If not everything is OK.
(even Selectric 1.10 worked fine from Everest and also from 1STVIEW
which had remotely executed from the FALCON!)
So definetely TCP_open causes the bombs, but this doesn't mean it's
STinG's bug. It may be the conditions of the call. If that's the
case, i'm afraid we are in trouble. Note also that after connection
STinG routines are called all of the time without problems.

Keep cool!	Vassilis
