INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Mon, 23 Oct 89       Volume 89 : Issue 551
 
Today's Topics:
               Computer Aesthetics (Re: 386 vs the TT)
                       Tos 1.4 - Two Versions?
                            TT, 386, Apple
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 23 Oct 89 18:29:16 GMT
From:
 gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!marque!carroll1!dnewton@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
 (Dave 'C is cool, but what about LOGO?' Newton)
Subject: Computer Aesthetics (Re: 386 vs the TT)
 
In article <1989Oct23.073225.10313@agate.berkeley.edu> laba-1aj@web-4a.UUCP
 (John Kawakami) writes:
>The only nice looking interface environment for micros is the Mac's.
 
   Do you consider the NeXT a micro, seeing as how it's a ton cheaper than a
Compaq 386/33?  I think the NeXT _interface_ blows the Mac's away.
 
>Now you (John/Jane Q. Tightcode) might be saying "the graphics aren't
>as important as the speed."  Well, I have some news for you: you are
>wrong.  The graphics are the user's view of the machine.  They determine
>how valuable the machine is to the user.  I don't doubt that the Mac's
>good looks make user think that the $2K she/he just threw down for a
>Plus was actually worth it.  (We can laugh at how much Mac buyers are
>overcharged, but the buyers are satisfied.
 
   This is pretty sad.  Great, I got a Mac Plus with its _wonderous_ user
interface.  Unfortunately, it takes a lifetime to re-calc a spreadsheet, find
things, etc.  good grief, a little 8-MHz 68000 simply can't handle the
interface alone, let alone any applications.  I wouldn't buy a Mac (at least
not a little one) if my life depended on it.  A IIx approaches, a IIci is
the slowest one I'd buy.  But it's kinda expensive.
   Graphic capability _does_ _not_ determine the usefullness of the machine. If
this was true, I guess IBM wouldn't even have a machine now, would they?  It
took them up til now to come up with a reasonable graphics standard that's
outdated.  But you'll note the machine is still used a little.
   I guess the old Altair-8800 wasn't useful, 'cuz the only graphics it had
were a bunch o' little red lights.  Forget that it was extremely important in
bringing computers to people.  The old Apple ][, forget it.  No graphics to
speak of.  (Unmatched in its time of course, but ignore that for now.)  And
_please_ forget nearly every straight Unix box _ever_ created, 'cuz most Unix
stuff doesn't have too many graphics.
   Now that I think about it, I guess you're right.  Sorry.  (Sarcasm.)
 
>&  Live each day as if it were your first
 
   If I did that, I'd be screaming, getting spanked by someone in white,
vomiting Pablum, belching, and sleeping all the time.  Hey wait a minnit...
 
--
David L. Newton       | uunet!marque!carroll1!dnewton  | The Raging Apostle--
(414) 524-7343 (work) |    dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu     | for the future--
(414) 524-6809 (home) | 100 NE Ave, Waukesha WI 53186  | for the world.
"
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 22 Oct 89 23:27:00 GMT
From:
 cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!tmsoft!masnet!canremote!c
alvin.bruner@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (CALVIN BRUNER)
Subject: Tos 1.4 - Two Versions?
 
I was talking to my dealer (one of the largest in Canada) and he
informed me that Atari Canada was waiting for the "new version" of Tos
1.4 to come in.  As I was certain that Atari had said that there was
only one version of Tos 1.4 (other than developer disk version?) I
queried him further.  He assured me that they were waiting for a new
version of Tos 1.4??  Does anyone know anything about this?  What were
the changes, or am I, and my dealer mistaken?
---
 * Via ProDoor 3.1R
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 23 Oct 89 19:36:07 GMT
From: eru!luth!sunic!tut!hydra!hylka!jalkio@bloom-beacon.mit.edu  (Jouni Alkio)
Subject: TT, 386, Apple
 
->In article <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu>, scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) writes:
> cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes:
>
>> <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi
>> (Jouni Alkio) responds:
>>      What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are
>>   very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only
>>   the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the
>>   same traditional tracks.
>>
-> I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the
-> small business and home user than loose paperclips :-).  Seriously, the
-> amount of PC's abound is sickening.  If it's not an industry standard,
-> tell me what is.  Besides, you said more people supporting one line,
-> the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this
-> sound like industry standardization?
>
We sure have tons of PC's here in Finland. I was talking about 386
specific software and there is not very much of it! The TT will be ST
compatible, just like the 386 is PC-compatible, and MAC II is
MAC-compatible! I think it won't take
very long, when there is as much TT specific software as there is 386
specific software. By the way, I can use a lot of PC- or MAC-software on
the ST, too. The coin (the industry standardization) has, as always, two
sides. The good one is that you can get a lot of software. The bad one
is the dependence on old technology. The same problem is with ST's and
TT's, too - but the PC is older standard.
 
> (Jouni Alkio) continues:
>       I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually
>   they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid
>   to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced
>   it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt
>   or something...)
>
-> I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too.
-> Almost every.  There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having,
-> but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on
-> other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported.
 
If I have a program for my computer, isn't it available?!?!? Could you
give an example of a program more powerful on a PC (in the same
price-range, not a 386, for example)?
>
> Jouni Alkio:
>   What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all
>   off those devices for ST's and TT's, too.
>
-> Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff.
-> I've got my 1040 sitting on it.  A huge cable comes out for my external disk
-> drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk;
-> I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too
-> big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff.  Then I've got another
-> cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem.  And, finally, cables going out to
-> my printer and my two monitors.  It's a mess!  If my 1040 were more like
-> a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive,
 diskdrive,
-> and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the
-> cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody
-> CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards.
 
I like having various devices on my desk. This doesn't mean that I
couldn't use them. I admit that some people like emptier desks - and
it's also practical in the offices, for example. For me, it's a matter
of taste. It's not my fault if you have bought a noisy hard-disk. You
are free to choose. Or do you mean that a PC-case would prevent the
hard-disk from being so noisy?!?!?
 
>
>> Chris writes:
>>   Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular
>>   red fruit <grin>) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can
>>   actually see and touch it!).
>
> Jouni says:
>   Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and
>   compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival
>   MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST
>   even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go?
>
-> Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST.  In fact, I don't know of any
-> Apple II that has a 68030.  He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac.  Get a clue :-)
-> And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics.
 
Wait a minute, I didn't write anything about Apple II (and if I did, I
meaned Apple MAC II, of course)! I just didn't like the
speed comparison between A 68030 APPLE AND A 68000 ST, it is unfair! OF
COURSE a MAC II is technically much better than a ST - you could as well
compare a MAC II with a supercomputer... It makes no sense comparing
computers in completely other price-ranges.
>
>> Richard says:
>>   So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari
>>   that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects.
>
> Sounds right.  When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari
> was the most powerful computer out for the price.  For only a few hundred
> dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!).
> Or something that has support.  Dare I say it?  Yes, a Mac.
 
What do you relly mean by that support? I wouldn't pay much extra money
for getting some brochures, for example. One fact is, that you are
slightly in another position as I - Europe is Atari's first marketing
area for computers, as far as I know.
>
> Jouni replies:
>   How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even
>   if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI,
>   too.
>
-> Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy.  You just
-> don't lift the cover a drop in a card.  You lift the cover, desolder a chip,
-> patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor
-> if you don't know how.
 
It doesn't have to be so easy if you are a bit handy. It would be nice
if I just could insert the cards in their sockets, but it really doesn't
matter very much for me.
>
-> Yes, the ST's are inexpensive.  That's great.  If you want it now, though,
-> forget it.  And support?  I've sent out all the warranty cards I could
-> from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari,
-> or a newsletter, or anything.  I wonder if there's anybody back there.
-> Authorized repair centers?  We don't need no stinking authorized repair
-> centers!
 
As I said before in this article, I wouldn't like to pay much extra for
some brochures.
 
*** NOTE: I changed the text "Varsinainen ..." to my real name "Jouni
Alkio". The first "name" was not a name (I didn't know that it would
represent a name, at all...) Sorry.***
 
                                Jouni Alkio
 
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End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #551
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