=========================================================================
 
INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Wed,  6 Dec 89       Volume 89 : Issue 764
 
Today's Topics:
                            Absoft Fortran
                        A few random thoughts
                              Form Doc's
                 Form Doc's ASCII NOW HERE! (2 msgs)
                        Help >> COUNTRY.ARC!!!
                    Question: Saving the Menu Bar
                Starting a New ST Magazine in the USA
                          Still searching...
              Will there be a Jan 1990 ANALOG Magazine?
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 89 03:45+0100
From: Ritzert%DMZRZU71.BITNET@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Absoft Fortran
Message-ID: <891207024528.958022@DMZRZU71-UNI-MAINZ--GERMANY>
 
>   I also understand your problems. Some of them may be solved by
>   using the 'script' commando from the library manager. May be, the
>   linker also has cuch a command. There is still no way to do it via
>   command line options.
 
Well, do You really have a library manager with a script command? Mine
doesn't have one. At least it is not documented. There is a serious bug
in the compiler (version 2.3):
 
If You want to use a common block only in some subroutines You have to
declare it in Your main program. Otherwise You will get unpredictable
results. This is the only Fortran compiler I have used which behaves
this way (and I have been writing Fortran programs on many systems).
 
Michael Ritzert
mjr@dmzrzu71.bitnet
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 20:14:07 GMT
From:
 cs.utexas.edu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!ria!uwovax!4224_51
 32@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Andrew Semple)
Subject: A few random thoughts
Message-ID: <4464.257d2cbf@uwovax.uwo.ca>
 
In article <473ffa3c.14a1f@force.UUCP>, covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
 writes:
> In article <4448.257a46e4@uwovax.uwo.ca>, 4224_5132@uwovax.uwo.ca (Andrew
 Semple) writes:
>>
>>  covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) spews,
>>
>> > You know Ken, that is ONE reason why I refuse to buy the new TT. If you
 can't
>> > even upgrade a Mega ST2 to 4 megs because of some manufacturing decision to
>> > save 10 cents by using a MMU chip that can't address 4 megs, then what does
>> > that tell me about Atari?? It is INSANE to sell a Mega ST2 that is crippled
>> > so that it can't be upgraded to 4 megs. That is another example of Atari's
>> > No Upgrade Policy. Why do you folks do that??
>> >
>> > And are you folks going to change this policy with regards to the TT/p? Or
>> > if I want to add more memory after I purchase a TT/P will I have to sell
>> > it and buy another TT/p with more memory??
>> >
>>   The above statement about the ST2 not being able to be expanded to 4 Megs
>> is absolute CRAP.  I know of about 20 ST2's that have been expanded to 4
 Megs.
>
> Andrew, I was simply repeating what Ken B of Atari said in an earlier post.
> That *SOME* Mega ST2s can NOT be upgraded to 4 megabytes.
>
  Then why didn't you say that IN your post.  Be more careful.
 
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> Andrew Semple                               ads@hydra.uwo.ca
>> 2nd Year Applied Math/Computer Science      Andrew.Semple@hydra.uwo.ca
>   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Oh, an expert :-)
>
  I'll take that as a complement.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Semple                               ads@hydra.uwo.ca
2nd Year Applied Math/Computer Science      Andrew.Semple@hydra.uwo.ca
The University of Western Ontario           Semple@uwovax.BITNET
London, Ontario
Canada     "I think in the predicate calculus."   - I. Newton :-)
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 22:50:37 GMT
From: tahoe!wheeler!mikew@apple.com  (Mike Whitbeck)
Subject: Form Doc's
Message-ID: <3323@tahoe.unr.edu>
 
In article <10157@stag.math.lsa.umich.edu| hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu)
 writes:
|For folks who don't want to deal with it, there's a program dvitty
|that was posted to mod.sources (yeah, a long time ago) that will
|print DVI files on a dumb terminal. Somewhat ugly output, but it's
|usable. This was written for Unix, so it'll take a little work
|to get running. If there's any interest, lemme know.
|--
| -=- PrayerMail: Send 100Mbits to holyghost@father.son[127.0.0.1]
| and You Too can have a Personal Electronic Relationship with God!
 
dvitty is a mixed C and Pascal source code. I compiled it on a
Sun. It crashed while doing the index to form.dvi. See my
earlier post for availability of the form ascii file.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 7 Dec 89 01:55:28 GMT
From: tahoe!wheeler!mikew@apple.com  (Mike Whitbeck)
Subject: Form Doc's ASCII NOW HERE!
Message-ID: <3324@tahoe.unr.edu>
 
I put a copy on the TERMINATOR archive in
        atari/new/formdoc.arc
 
I also am mailing a copy for posting in the binaries newsgroup.
 
BTW- I fixed the index   the manual is 253 pages long with index
and table of contents.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 22:47:37 GMT
From: tahoe!news@apple.com  (News )
Subject: Form Doc's ASCII NOW HERE!
Message-ID: <3322@tahoe.unr.edu>
 
>Agreed it may have fancy math symbols, but still the ASCII TeX file could have
>been posted instead of the binary .dvi file. Then at least we, those w/o TeX,
>could have looked at some of the material.
>
>--
> Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
>  (602) - 581-4652
>|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
> UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
From: mikew@wheeler.wrcr.unr.edu (Mike Whitbeck)
Path: wheeler!mikew
 
 
 
OK ! I have just compiled dvitty and filtered the infamous
form.dvi into good 'ol form.asc  i.e. plain ascii file. You may
have to fiddle with end of line (unix vs tos \r\n vs \n stuff)
but its done.
 
(well sort of done -- the dvitty driver crashed while doing the
index - jeez how many contributors give ya such a nice manual
with an index even! The last I can remember was UNITERM)
 
 
 
The arc'd (that ok?) file is 163K so if some ONE will give me an
I net address for anon ftp I'll put it out there where it can be
accessed.
___________________________________________________________
|Mike Whitbeck             |                              |
|Desert Research Inst.     | mikew@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu    |
|POB 60220                 |                              |
|RENO, NV 89506            | 702-673-7348                 |
|__________________________|______________________________|
 
Any simple problem can be made insoluble if enough committee
meetings are held to discuss it.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 89 19:33:44 MST
From: ehsnsr@jupiter.nmt.edu (Eric Hobbs)
Subject: Help >> COUNTRY.ARC!!!
Message-ID: <8912070233.AA26917@jupiter.nmt.edu>
 
Hi.
    I recently downloaded COUNTRY.ARC. It de-arced just fine, but when I run
COUNTRY.PRG, A Dialog box pops up that says:  Error #008  PC>$000000.
What Happened? I ran it on a .5 Meg 520 STfm with NO accessories or  AUTO
progs loaded.
 
    If it turns out that COUNTRY.ARC is messed up, Is there another archive
site that has samples and a player?
 
Thanx.
 
Eric Hobbs
ehsnsr@JUPITER.nmt.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 20:01:04 GMT
From: haven!uvaarpa!hudson!bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU!gl8f@purdue.edu  (Greg
 Lindahl)
Subject: Question: Saving the Menu Bar
Message-ID: <2407@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>
 
In TeXShell, which shamelessly borrows code from Moshe Braner's
generic DA code, I save the menu bar by knowing that it's the
first 380 longwords after the start of the screen, which it
gets from Physbase().
 
Now, obviously, this is a dumb thing to do in the days of bigger
screens. So what's the best way to save the menu bar? I could try
getting the height of the font, and assume the menu bar is smaller
than 2 character heights, and then blit it into a buffer. Or I could
try doing something strange with window creation to see how close to
the top of the screen I can put a window.
 
What's the best, most portable way?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
------
Greg Lindahl
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 22:59:01 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Richard E.
 Covert)
Subject: Starting a New ST Magazine in the USA
Message-ID: <4745828e.14a1f@force.UUCP>
 
for the United States? I know that ST APPLICATIONS started
out as a small Mom and Pop limited circulation newsletter
type magazine. ST APPS grew into a very respectable full
glossy page magazine.
 
It seems with the availability of online services, such as
GEnie and CI$, and the DTP in the ST (PageStream, Calamus),
and the SLM804, that someone could put together a respectable
little magazine on a shoestring budget.
 
For example, the Phoenix Atari ST Club publishes a bimonthly
newsletter called PHAST which is developed entirely on a
Mega ST4/SLM804 system using PageStream. We do a camera ready
copy and send it out to be printed, collated, and stapled. We
then put on the mailing address labels (also done on a Mega ST4).
 
It would be great if the best authors of ST APPLICATIONS and
ST LOG could get together to work on the new ST magazine.
 
Any ideas outhere??
 
I mean even Current Notes, which is a nice magazine, started out
as a DC club newsletter.
 
Just a thought.
 
--
 Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
  (602) - 581-4652
|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
 UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 23:20:48 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!kullmar!pkmab!daniel@uunet.uu.net  (Daniel Deimert)
Subject: Still searching...
Message-ID: <2385@pkmab.se>
 
In article <1854@atari.UUCP>, kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) writes:
 
>
> daniel@pkmab.se (Daniel Deimert) writes:
> | I can assure you -- you won't be able
> | to sell a lot of computers if you don't tell them how to program it!
>
> I seriously doubt that the _majority_ of people who buy Atari
> computers, or any other computers for that matter, have the slightest
> desire to program their machines.  The simple fact is, most people who
 
You might be right there - but what about the so well-known PD/SW programs?
There are a lot of goodies among these, like the Quick ST etc.
The programmers who make these programs are considered "end users", or..?
 
> buy computers want to _use_ their computers.  They don't want to be
 
Yes. Of course.  But _MANY_ of those have bought a computer to be able
to program it as well as use it! Otherwise they would have bought a video
game. The percentage who bought it as a business computer? Well, I guess
you can count it out. You haven't got a great reputation, you know.
The STE isn't going to do it any good either, nor the LYNX.
 
> | [...] it must be possible to post a minimum of information to some
> | knowledgeable people in the right places.
>
> Who is "knowledgeable"?  What is "the right place"?  How much
> information is "a minimum"?
 
"Knowledgeable" is for example the people who wrote Quick ST.  And there
are more people on the net (for example).  And the journalists of a
computer magazine such as the swedish one, "AtariSTen".  And that is the
right place, too.  It's not YOUR business -- but it is Atari Scandinavia's.
 
"A minimum" of information is, in this case, a list of adresses to the
new chips/enhanced chips and a _short_ explanation of what to put there.
 
I know you did this with early STs:  They got some kind of addendum with
a list of adresses to the PSG (complete with waweform diagrams!) and
such.  That's the kind of information I want.  Not internal TOS behaviour.
But the most important stuff, of course stripped compared to the dev. docs.
That doesn't matter.
 
Like now,  how easier everything would have been for me if the
source-code (in Turbo-C, I know.) to the demonstration programns would have
been there, right on the language disk.  I do think you had some spare
space, huh? Not of interest to all, no. But of great importance to others.
 
 
> And what do you call the information we have been posting?
> Chopped liver?
 
No, I don't. And I think I mentioned the fact that I thought this
was the way to handle things. (Like the ARGV defs -- wonderful!)
I refer to my earlier postings.
 
> | And there're a lot of developers on the net, too.
>
> In fact, only a tiny percentage of commercial ST developers are active
> on the net.
 
But it just MIGHT be "cost effective" to post it to the net, then?
Fine.
 
> | And people from the net DO forward things to the right places.
>
> It's true that net.info gets spread around quite a bit.  It's also
> true that it gets warped on the way out.  People are misquoted.  The
> information may be wrongly interpreted at the far end, with no chance
> of the person(s) responsible for the original post to clear up the
> mistakes.
 
Mostly it's correct.  KERMIT don't missquote things, I think.  Nor do
ZMODEM.
Maybe XMODEM does, I don't know :-)
 
This is no reason.  If you post something of any importance (like a
program or the ARGV stuff) it's not rewritten -- it's just sent
further by file transmission.
No missquoting there...
 
> [interesting chain letter analogy deleted]
 
Oh... :-)
 
>
> | It should at least be "cost effective" to give this information to
> | developers without them having to ask!
>
> Registered developers get a lot of information without having to ask
> anything more than "Where's my developer kit?"
 
This was your words. "Just them having to ask", or something like that.
Look in you article.
 
Reading all the messages from developers (the LOW percentage, remember?)
who aren't satisfied with the information, I can't agree with you.
But I don't really have inside information. We better leave the subject.
 
> | Why should I buy a computer I can't use?  Like buying a car and when
> | you ask for an explanation of the buttons getting the answer: "Sorry,
> | you have to be a registred driver to get to know this.  You shouldn't
> | know about more than the gear and the wheel."
>
> Why do so many people use this analogy?
 
Maybe because it's a good one?
 
>  A computer is not a car. A computer is a computer.
 
True, but you want to use your computer, just as you want to use your car.
And you want to program it, to drive it. At least some of us. :-)
 
>  But, since you insist, getting technical
> information (on a level equivalent to "How do I program DMA sound?")
> from an auto manufacturer isn't all that easy either.  Try it some time.
 
Maybe not, but I do think the auto man. would answer the question:
"Where are the ---SOMETHING---"?  ("At what adress is ---?")
And the car company cooperates with people writing books about "do it yourself".
 
But since you're not comfortable with this analogy, we'll leave that too.
 
> | Have nobody thought of the possibility that there might be something
> | wrong? Why should we otherwise be bashing Atari?
>
> Okay, I'm donning my asbestos suit for this one, but here goes: I think
> the reason that people bash Atari is BECAUSE THEY CAN. Because we are
> active on the nets answering technical questions, people feel that
> their input on how Atari should run its operation will be listened to.
 
Oh?  Since when have you been answering tech. questions from net people?
(Low end users?)  Not in this case, at least. (But again, I KNOW, I KNOW,
you have done that sometimes - that's why I got surprised of these
negative answers to my humble questions!)
 
> | I have offered to help writing some demonstration programs to be put
> | on the STE language disk. I haven't even got a reply.   Atari Corp. was
> | obviosly not interested.>
> This concerns me.  To whom did you send the offer?  Where did you send
> your letter?  Did you send an example program along with your offer?
 
I sent it by electronic mail to kbad@atari.UUCP, that is YOU. (Message
dated Fri Nov 24 12:26:13 1989, subject: Questions about the STE)
 
And NO, I did not send an example program -- I had still got no
information about how to program the STE, remember?
Since my english is a bit strange and foreign, after all -- you might
not have understood me.  But now you have, and the offer is still there.
 
If I write something that is better than the existing programs, is it
possible to get it distributed on the language disks?
Is it possible to write some kind of "dealer demo" that could be sent
out to dealers from Atari Corp. with a lot of stunning graphics and
sound, as they say?
I can do a lot of this myself, and I know more people who would be pleased
to help.  If it's possible, well my mail adress is below.
 
>
> | I do not want Atari Corp. to die [...]
>
> Nor do I.  I hope you are able to get the information you want to program
> your STE soon.  But remember, Atari gives registered developers special
> treatment, and they deserve it, because they write the software that
> sells Atari computers.
 
I think you're absolutely right in giving the developers HIGHER support
than end users, but I do think you could give us end users a little
more support than you do.
We're not asking for much (are we?).
 
 
And, this is of course my opinion, and if it "awakens the beast within you",
it's not my fault. You shouldn't have read this...
---
    Daniel Deimert, Fridstavagen 4, S-715 94 Odensbacken, SWEDEN
    Internet:   daniel@pkmab.se
    UUCP:       ...?uunet,mcvax?!sunic.sunet.se!kullmar!pkmab!daniel
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 20:35:05 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Richard E.
 Covert)
Subject: Will there be a Jan 1990 ANALOG Magazine?
Message-ID: <474501d8.14a1f@force.UUCP>
 
I just got my December 1989 issue of ANALOG Magazine. I have a subscription
good thru July 1990 of ST LOG which was transferred to ANALOG with the November
1989 issue. The October 1989 issue of ST LOG was the final issue. Does
anyone know, has any been contacted, if ANALOG will be published next year?
 
The final issue of ST LOG was very clear that it was merging into ANALOG,
so the publishers knew well in advance. When other ST magazines have stopped
publication ( died :-( ) the last issue clearly said that it was the last
issue. But, there is nothing in the Dec 1989 issue of ANALOG to indicate that
is the final issue. In fact, there are 2 subscription forms in it for NEW
subscribers??
 
I wonder if I will get a free subscription to Hustler (same publisher :-) )?
 
Anyway, while I hate to see an Atari magazine fold, I just plain don't like
the December issue. It has a bunch of pages about new electronic gadgets for
Christmas. While this article is nice, it is just filler in an Atari magazine.
This article should have been in PopularScience or Consumers Reports or
something like that. I didn't buy an Atari magazine to read about a new
Sony WATCHMAN color tv!
 
Also, I don't care for the way 8bit and ST articles are mixed together. I would
prefer that the 8bit be in a ripoff insert in the middle of the mag. Than I
could discard the 8bit section and keep the ST mag intact.
 
I will miss Clayton Walthum's CManShip column. I hope that he is picked up
by STart, but I doubt it. I will miss Ian's Quest and a few other columns.
All in all, I preferred ST LOG to STart and that's why I subscribed (sigh)
to ST LOG instead of STart.
 
If ANALOG indeed is dead, it is a sad day for us all!!
 
--
 Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
  (602) - 581-4652
|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
 UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
 
------------------------------
 
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #764
*****************************************
