=========================================================================
 
INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Wed,  6 Dec 89       Volume 89 : Issue 760
 
Today's Topics:
                        A few random thoughts
                     Atari image in USA / Europe
                         Form Doc's (2 msgs)
                           FORM docs again
                           Optical ST Mouse
                        ST CLub Meeting place
                          Still searching...
                              STOS Basic
                      User Group Meeting Places
                      WANTED : FORM parts 16,17
                       Xformer II (or whatever)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 07:24:05 GMT
From: fox!portal!cup.portal.com!Bob_BobR_Retelle@apple.com
Subject: A few random thoughts
Message-ID: <24748@cup.portal.com>
 
Andrew Semple says:
 
> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) spews,
>> You know Ken, that is ONE reason why I refuse to buy the new TT. If you ca
>> even upgrade a Mega ST2 to 4 megs because of some manufacturing decision t
>> save 10 cents by using a MMU chip that can't address 4 megs, then what doe
>> that tell me about Atari?? It is INSANE to sell a Mega ST2 that is cripple
>> so that it can't be upgraded to 4 megs. That is another example of Atari's
>> No Upgrade Policy. Why do you folks do that??
 
>  The above statement about the ST2 not being able to be expanded to 4 Megs
>is absolute CRAP.  I know of about 20 ST2's that have been expanded to 4 Meg
 
Yes indeed.. .that  _used_  to be true... you could unsolder several hundred
tiny holes and install sockets for RAM to take an ST2 up to 4 Megs..
 
But...  you apparently haven't seen a recent ST2 motherboard...
 
Atari Corp has redesigned the ST2 motherboard _without_ the RAM locations
for the second bank of chips, making it impossible to upgrade the memory.
 
You tell me... why would they spend the money on a redesign and retooling
of the motherboard, not to mention the added expense of having to maintain
2 separate inventories of PC boards where they used to be able to use the
same one in both Mega ST models..?
 
Your statement about having seen ST2s upgraded to 4 Megs gives us a clue..
Atari Corp didn't get a cent from those upgrades...
 
The "official" Atari upgrade policy is: Get rid of your Mega ST2 and buy
an ST4 from us.
 
BobR
 
(Those who feel this message is a "Flame" or "Atari Bashing" are cordially
invited to mail me your observations on why any of the above is incorrect)
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 16:09:47 GMT
From:
 swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caesar.cs.montana.edu
 !blake!gwangung@ucsd.edu  (Just another theatre geek...)
Subject: Atari image in USA / Europe
Message-ID: <4781@blake.acs.washington.edu>
 
In article <"89-12-05-19:03:23.56*UI0T"@DKAUNI2.BITNET> UI0T@DKAUNI2.BITNET
 ("Thomas Koenig") writes:
>It never ceases to amaze me what kind of image Atari computers
>have in Europe as opposed to in America.
 
        Indeed.  A recent article in FORBES compared Commodore to Atari and
characterized Commodore as a struggling non-MS DOS company while Atari was
a "computer game" company.  And that the Amiga was second only to MS-DOS
machines in Europe........
 
 
 
 
 
 
--
Roger Tang, Member
Uncle Bonsai Memorial Fan Club
American Flag Disposal Unit #3245, Chonk Moonhunters chapter
gwangung@blake.acs.washington.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 15:19:57 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Richard E.
 Covert)
Subject: Form Doc's
Message-ID: <4743e81c.14a1f@force.UUCP>
 
In article <2400@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>, gl8f@bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg
 Lindahl) writes:
> In article <473eecf4.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
 writes:
>
> >Hey, it doesn't seem like many folks like the TeX docs to form.
>
> Yes, if only some of them said it politely, then they could get them
> in another form. However, if all we have is a doc in TeX, how else do
> you propose to distribute them?
>
> >Must be some form of Elitest mentatlity to post docs to a program
> >in a format that 99% of the people don't use.
>
> Jos did you a FAVOR by translating these docs, and all you do is throw
> shit at him? How about "THANKS, JOS!!" for translating them in the first
> place?
>
> >Oh well, it could have been done in nroff, which at least most UN*X
> >people have access to.
>
> If you have Unix, you can get TeX for free. If you have an ST, you can
> get TeX for free. If you ASKED, probably someone would gladly print
> you a copy of the FORM docs. If you throw shit on them, however, they
                               ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> might not want to do it...
>
> ------
> Greg Lindahl
 
Geez, Greg do you have a problem with me, personally, or what? I wasn't really
complaining, at least not as vocally as others. But you flame me and no one
 else.
 
What gives with you??
 
As far as Saying Thanks to a poster, just how often do you think that that
happens?? Not often from what I see on this newsgroup. So, I don't think that
you will see many thanks for a post that for most folks here in the USA could
have been written in German or Latin for as much good as it does us.
 
Agreed it may have fancy math symbols, but still the ASCII TeX file could have
been posted instead of the binary .dvi file. Then at least we, those w/o TeX,
could have looked at some of the material.
 
So quite flaming me, huh buddy?
 
 
 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
 
--
 Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
  (602) - 581-4652
|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
 UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 17:18:35 GMT
From:
 zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!shadooby!sharkey!math.lsa.umich.edu!hyc@tut.c
 is.ohio-state.edu  (Howard Chu)
Subject: Form Doc's
Message-ID: <10157@stag.math.lsa.umich.edu>
 
For folks who don't want to deal with it, there's a program dvitty
that was posted to mod.sources (yeah, a long time ago) that will
print DVI files on a dumb terminal. Somewhat ugly output, but it's
usable. This was written for Unix, so it'll take a little work
to get running. If there's any interest, lemme know.
--
 -=- PrayerMail: Send 100Mbits to holyghost@father.son[127.0.0.1]
 and You Too can have a Personal Electronic Relationship with God!
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 89 13:41:30 SET
From: VBRANDT%DBNUAMA1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: FORM docs again
 
Hello all,
 
   I can't believe the clamor that's been going on here about the form docs.
Here is a nice person who sends around a sophisticated scientific application
package IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.  He then proceeds to include a professionally
typeset documentation in freely reproducable form (ie. you can print as many
copies as you want).
 
   He then gets flamed for (1) using TeX, (2) not using "inclusive language",
and (3) using a paper size that's standardized in Europe and a few dozen other
countries, but not in the Good Ole Redneck USA.
 
   Did anyone say, "Thanks for sending this around, but I can't make use of the
docs, so please help me, I have this-and-that printer"?  No!  I'm not flaming
any individual here, although I'm itching to do so. (Right, Richard?)
 
   I'm sure if someone politely asked Jos, he'd be able to put together a list
of needed fonts together with instructions on how to get printer drivers for
.DVI files.  I advise him to ignore all other postings.
 
   There, I feel better already. ;-)
 
   Maybe now I can find some time to look at the program.  Many thanks to
Jos Vermaseren to share his work with us.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bitnet:  VBRANDT@DBNUAMA1 (will go away some day ...)  Volker A. Brandt
          UNM409@DBNRHRZ1 (alternative)                Angewandte Mathematik
UUCP:    ...!unido!DBNUAMA1.bitnet!vbrandt             (Bonn, West Germany)
ARPAnet: VBRANDT%DBNUAMA1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 14:11:54 GMT
From:
 zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!image.soe.clarkson.edu!daemon@tut.cis.ohio-state.
 edu
Subject: Optical ST Mouse
Message-ID: <8912061412.AA01003@skilving.uio.no>
 
Has anyone heard of an optical mouse that can be used with the ST.
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
arneso@ifi.uio.no -  Arne Sommer                    "Powder to the People"
 
 
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 15:29:18 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Richard E.
 Covert)
Subject: ST CLub Meeting place
Message-ID: <4743f079.14a1f@force.UUCP>
 
Well, I called the City of Phoenix and asked about meeting places. I was
told to contact various Library Branches as they have conference rooms
for rent. There are about 4 Phoenix Branch Libraries that are within the
area that we want to hold our ST Club Meetings. All four will rent us a
room large enough to hold 60 people for $5.00 for an entire morning or
afternoon.
 
I am going to present the idea of holding meetings in our next meeting,
and try to get a vote on it in the Jan meeting.
 
Looks good.
 
 
--
 Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
  (602) - 581-4652
|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
 UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 05:07:16 GMT
From:
 zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!natinst!rpp386!mark@tut.cis.ohio-st
 ate.edu  (Mark Lehmann)
Subject: Still searching...
Message-ID: <17408@rpp386.cactus.org>
 
>I seriously doubt that the _majority_ of people who buy Atari
>computers, or any other computers for that matter, have the slightest
>desire to program their machines.  The simple fact is, most people who
>buy computers want to _use_ their computers.  They don't want to be
>bothered with "programming" the things.  Where a computer company
>will lose is if there is no software available for the computers.  It
>is important to make sure that professional programmers know how to
>program the computers, not end users.
 
Ken,
   Not to dispute your argument about the reason most people buy their
Atari ST's (to use pre-written code), but I bought my ST in my senior
year of high school to learn how to program.  I came from a back ground
of an Epson QX-10 using CP/M and I basically had to write any software
that I wanted to use (uncluding a word processor, network printer server,
music composer programs - all in CP/M using a variety of high level languages:
C and Pascal).
 
   When I first got my Atari, I was greatly disappointed at the availability
of software (mainly due to my location) also in the general desgin of the
ST (I have a 1040ST and the keys are a little akward and the 9 pin ports
are in a stange spot.)
 
  My point is, for home users like me (maybe 10%) the thrill in having the
computer is programming to solve problems, and have a lot of fun in doing
it.  And, in my programming of this machine that I have low expectations
of, I have really learned to like it allot.  In fact, since I had low
expecatations, the ST has done nothing but impress my since I bought it.
Maybe this is just my view point, but I bet there are allot of other
people out their that also have allot of fun just programming their ST to
solve problems or solve mathematical puzzles, and sometimes that means
knowing how to interface with the operating system.
 
  Maybe Atari could offer a smaller public version of operating system
technical references for people like me.  (This is not a complaint, I
like my ST and Atari.)  Sorry for making this sooooo long.
 
Mark Lehmann
bigtex!rpp386.cactus.org!mark
 
--
+------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Mark Lehmann                       |                                   |
| mark@rpp386.cactus.org             |                                   |
| ?bigtex|texbell?!rpp386!mark       |                                   |
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 16:42:33 GMT
From: brunix!iris.brown.edu!mjv@uunet.uu.net  (Marshall Vale)
Subject: STOS Basic
Message-ID: <22309@brunix.UUCP>
 
In article <1862@atari.UUCP> kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) writes:
> | In article <CMM.0.88.628643865.larserio@kvart.uio.no>
larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) writes:
> | >One of my friend has STOS and TOS 1.2 but we tried it on my MEGA4 with
> | >TOS 1.4 - It worked OK, BUT you can't move the mouse-pointer !!!!!
>
> | Applications generated with STOS seem to exhibit this same behavior.
>
> This is because STOS used absolute, undocumented memory locations for
> mouse position.  More's the pity, because a legal way of getting at
> these variables _is_ documented.  A couple of other software packages
> exhibited this behaviour in Rainbow TOS testing here at Atari, as well.
>
> I believe Antic has a new version of STOS that works better with Rainbow
TOS.
 
 I just received a catalog from some place in California which sold PD and
commercial software.  On one of their PD disks was a patch for STOS running
on TOS 1.4.  If you are interested, mail me and I'll e-mail the address
and info back.
 
Enjoy.
 
-- mjv@iris.brown.edu
 
"And, oh! Father Christmas, if you love me at all,
 Bring me a big, red india-rubber ball."
                                   A.A. Milne "Now We are Six"
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 89 11:35:15 EST
From: Stephen Harold Goldstein <steveg@SAIC.COM>
Subject: User Group Meeting Places
Message-ID: <8912061635.AA00899@NARNIA.SAIC.COM>
 
(Richard Covert asked about user group meeting places).
 
Our local chapter of the NOVATARI user's group meets in a public
library.  Have you tried that route?
 
On another note, I'd like to compliment you on the more constructive
comments in your recent posts.  Keep at it, you and BobR are getting
better.  BTW - the TT/p does NOT need to be expandable - I see it
being offered as an unexpandable but cheaper alternative to the TT/x.
But of course neither is yet available, so we'll have to wait (and
wait and wait :-) ) and see.
 
---
Stephen Goldstein     steveg@saic.com
My first Atari system? A 24K Atari 800, Rev. A ROMS, C(not G)TIA graphics
Disclaimer:  That's not what I said.
 
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 17:25:18 GMT
From: mips!prls!gert@apple.com  (Gert Slavenburg)
Subject: WANTED : FORM parts 16,17
Message-ID: <28937@prls.UUCP>
 
Could some kind soul(s) please mail me the parts 16 and 17 of FORM, they
did not arrive at our site !
 
Thanks in advance,
  Gert Slavenburg
  UUCP : ..!pyramid!prls!gert
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 17:03:25 GMT
From: microsoft!w-darekm@uunet.uu.net  (Darek Mihocka)
Subject: Xformer II (or whatever)
Message-ID: <9337@microsoft.UUCP>
 
In article <7264@cs.utexas.edu> psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes:
>I have a few questions about Xformer:
>
>  1.  What is the current version
>  2.  What systems does it support now (ie.8bit,c64 appleII)
>  3.  Just how fast is it now?
>  4.  How easy is it to get the .SD files over now?
>  5.  Where do I get a copy of the latest version?
 
Troy (or whatever),
 
1. The current version of ST Xformer II is 2.55. Version 2.6 will be released
   as soon as the Atari STE is released, so that I can add 16 grey level
   support and take advantage of the better sound and scrolling, but who knows
   when that will be. Sam Tramiel promised that the STE would ship in October,
   so I guess his word isn't worth spit.
 
2. 130XE only. Apple II and C-64 emulation were dropped so that I don't get
   sued by Apple and Commiedore.
 
3. 50% the speed of a 130XE, the best that can be done with a software only
   6502 interpreter. If you have Jim Allen's T16 board (the only accelerator
   board worth anything) it will run at up to 80% the speed of a 130XE.
 
4. Very easy. You don't even have to use .SD files. Just copy files directly
   from the 8-bit disk to the ST disk using DOS 2.5's Copy command.
 
5. The software is public domain, so you can download it from places like
   Compuserve or GEnie. Or you can get the disk and manual from me for $20.
   Or you can buy it from some Atari dealers, but be warned that all they do
   is download the stuff from Compuserve or GEnie and sell it to you at
   outrageous prices. I have nothing to do with that.
 
Also be warned that I have nothing to do with the manufacture or sale of
Xformer Cables. I placed the plans for those cables into the public domain
a year ago, and now some dealers are making their own cables and selling them.
I personally have come across a lot of bad cables. Pins are shorted together
and other goodies. So don't complain to me if you fry your ST.
 
With the Xformer Cable, you can run such disks as Atariwriter Plus,
B/Graph, Action and BASIC XL runtime packages, MAC/65, SpartaDOS, and even
Choplifter and Lode Runner, although a bit slowly.
 
- Darek
 
 || Branch Always Software || Darek Mihocka    || Quick ST/Index   $19.95 ||
 || PO Box 2624, Station B || (519)-747-0386   || Quick Utilities  $29.95 ||
 || Kitchener, Ont N2H 6N2 || CIS: 73657,2714  BIX, GEnie, Delphi: DAREKM ||
 || Canada  (519)-570-4340 || Quick Utilities on every desk in every home ||
 
------------------------------
 
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #760
*****************************************
