INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Thu, 16 Nov 89       Volume 89 : Issue 663
 
Today's Topics:
                 BLITZ! Diskette Backup System (Info
                        Blitz- my impressions
                       Bounced mail to Berkeley
              Hard Drive add-ons and net professionalism
                               ST Mouse
                 Strange programming languages (list)
     Time to create comp.sys.atari.flames (was Re: RE: Vapourwar
                            TT's VME-slots
            Want a fast Atari ST...how about a '030 chip?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 16 Nov 89 13:15:58 GMT
From: att!chinet!saj@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Stephen Jacobs)
Subject: BLITZ! Diskette Backup System (Info
 
I LIKE well-done advertising on the net.  What I mean by well-done is short
(like <= 30 lines), techy and posted only once.  If you check the guidelines
in news.newusers, you'll find that this is explicitly permitted, too.  What
I don't like is ads that are long, 'clever', repititious, and posted more
than once.  I tend to inform posters of 'poor taste' ads by replying to
their ads, and so far, they have replied politely and have agreed.
                                   Steve J.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 06:19:21 PST
From: U009%CCIW.BITNET@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Blitz- my impressions
 
Received: from CCIW.BITNET by McMaster.CA; Thu, 16 Nov 89 09:21 EDT
Date: Thu 16 11 89 07:44:00 EST
From: U009@CCIW.BITNET
Subject: Blitz- my impressions
To: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu                                 (
 
Hi again. Just a couple of thoughts about the Blitz duplicator.
 
Great innovation. Ranks up there with the Magic Sac and Spectre as
a great hack. All the more impressive because it's the type of thing:
"Gee, I could have thought of that!" In fact, after the first disk came
off, that's exactly what I thought.
 
How does it work? It seems to control the "from" drive by the normal
floppy ports, using pulse width modulation (PWM) on the MOTOR ON line to
adjust the floppy rotation speed. It controls the "to" floppy completely
thru the parallel printer port, and I imagine it uses PWM there too. The
program observes the index pulses from both drives and adjusts the rates
so both floppies rotate in synchronism.  The read data from the "from"
drive is connected directly to the write data line on the "to" drive (see
table below). When both drives are synchronized, the write gate line is
activated for 1 revolution and all the data is copied to the "to" drive,
keeping all pulse widths and relative timings identical. The routine then
advances to the next track and repeats the operation.
 
The same process could be used to build a stand-alone duplicator for
5-1/4" drives too. Probably an 8031 or even an 8748 would be all that is
required in a processor. A couple of switches to select 40 or 80 tracks,
1 or 2 sides (or default to 2, it's only an extra 20 seconds) and the 2
drives.
 
From the previous posting (with signal names added):
 
> COMPUTER (INTERNAL)                                 COMPUTER
> OR DRIVE 1 (EXTERNAL)      DRIVE 2                  PRINTER
> OUT PORT                   IN PORT                  OUT PORT
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 14 PIN DIN PLUG (MALE)     14 PIN DIN PLUG (MALE)   25 PIN DB PLUG (MALE)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                1                             - Read Data
>                                2 --WHITE--------------- 2    - Side 0 Select
> Logic Gnd 3 --VIOLET--VIOLET-- 3                             - Logic Ground
>                                4 --BLACK--------------- 9    - Index Pulse
>                                5 --BLUE---------------- 3    - Drive 0 Select
>                                6 --PEACH/BLACK--------- 3    - Drive 1 Select
>                                7 --GREEN-------------- 20    - Logic Ground
>                                8 --BLUE/BLACK---------- 7    - Motor ON
>                                9 --YELLOW-------------- 6    - Direction IN
>                               10 --WHITE/BLACK--------- 5    - Step Pulse
>   Read Data 1 --GRAY--PEACH-- 11                             - Write Data
>                               12 --BROWN--------------- 4    - Write Gate
>                               13 --ORANGE------------- 11    - Track 0
>                               14 --RED----------------- 8    - Write Protect
>     SHIELD ---------------  SHIELD ----------------- SHIELD
 
Regards, Stu Beal, VE3MWM, (U009@CCIW.BITNET),
National Water Research Institute,
Burlington, Ontario, Canada.
 
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 16 NOV 89 07:49:01 CST
From: Z4648252 <Z4648252%SFAUSTIN.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu>
Subject: Bounced mail to Berkeley
 
Vance Chin of Berkeley Micro Systems writes:
 
"Larry,
        Since there was all this discusion one the net about what rev to
have on the Seagate ST-296N we decided to buy one.  the results are:
 
        When Segate upgraded the "rom rev" of the ST-296N to "REV 8" they
also changed the timing of the SCSI bus.  This had the affect of requiring
a faster handshake for each byte.  So, if the host board you are using delays
the signal to long it will have to wait for the next transfer phase. This in
turn takes longer to transfer the data block from the drive.  On our host board
we used a 1:1 interleave to achieve the maximum data rate with no problems on
a Seagate ST296N rev 8 drive.
        This is why Seagate is bemused when you call them up and say " The drive
won't work 1:1 on my system".  Seagates tester runs them at 1:1 interleave
inhouse to test them faster.
 
Vance Chin
Berkeley Microsystems"
 
------------------
Vance,
 
    Thanks for the information about the 296n transfer rate.  My only
question at this point is why the SeaGate is the only one with this
difficulty with the various host adaptors?
    I'd be willing to buy the Berkeley host adaptor if I knew for sure
that I could get 1:1 to work.
    As usual, many thanks... you have always been helpful on the information
department.
 
 
Larry Rymal:  |East Texas Atari 68NNNers| <Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET>
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 11:43 EST
From: JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV
Subject: Hard Drive add-ons and net professionalism
 
In a message to a reader who asks about upgrading his SH204 Hard drive
Ray Wallace piques my curiosity:
 
1) As a non-SH 204 user I would like to ask what is in the guts of an
   SH 204.  I assume that it is an Atari Host Adapter with an Adaptec
   controller.  If this is the case the Seagate drive (say an ST 251)
   that would be added on would connect to an extra port on the
   controller and would therefore have the same SCSI address as the
   original drive but a different LUN number.
 
2) Might it not also be possible to fashion a daisy-chain cable for the
    SCSI connector from the host adapter and go to an embedded SCSI drive?
 
3)> I am under the impression that ICD's formatting software looks for an
    ICD clock at SCSI unit 6 on the bus, a feature that is unique to ICD's
    host adapters.  Tom Harker told me that this is why they are so
    generous in passing out their software, since only owners of ICD host
    adapters can use it.
 
4). The ICD formatting software from ver 4.xxx up is much more user-
     friendly than previous versions and is highly to be recommended.  I
     think that new drives can still be added, but I am not sure of this.
     The version 4.2 ICBDBOOT program also aoffers significant advantages
     with built-in caching and a fix for the 40-folder problem.
 
5). Those who are using the HDX program to format drives should be aware
    that an updated version is available on most decent BBS's (ver 3.01?)
 
6). If I were going to do what our correspondent wants to do I would sell my
    SH 204 and get an ICD host adapter, a case with a good sturdy power
    supply, and a suitable drive (embedded or non-embedded (also needs a
    controller).  I'll bet that this would be more trouble-free in the
    long run.  With the ICD host adapter you can also use a longer cable
    from the ST to the drive, and this makes a lot of difference.
 
Wallace's information is certainly nice and clear and quite correct.  I am
simply offering another point of view.  The tool is called a "vise". A
"vice" is something different.
I subscribe to Steve Goldstein's pledge.
 
 
 
In the June 1989 Current Notes I wrote a column solciting interest in
a professional organization for Atari Users along the lines of DECUS
in the DEC world.  This fell on deaf ears in that context and on
GENie, but netland may be more fertile ground.
 
 
 
It would be nice to know how many subscribers INFO-ATARI16 has.
 
 
 
Is there any interest in maintaining a membership roster on one of
the archive sites?  Perhaps some of our people could post lengthier
writeups on technical problems like using TeX and TCP/IP software and
hardware for the ST.  There are lots of issues like this that could
use a more coherent appraoch than the bulletin board system seems to
offer.  Some of these articles might make it into the Atari press.
 
 
 
I'm sure that the people who are paying for all of this net stuff
expect the users to get some solid professional benefit out of it and
it would be nice to see professionalism on the paert of the net users
get a proper airing.
 
 
 
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 16 Nov 89 03:15:35 GMT
From: psuvm!bgb100@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu  (Bruce Blanar)
Subject: ST Mouse
 
I've see places advertise "replacement" mice for the ST for around $49.
However, if you have access to or know where to get a Commodore Amiga
mouse, it will work if just two wires are interchanged inside the mouse.
I don't remember which two, but I have the info at home.  If you or
anyone else wants the info, I can send it or post.
 
Just another alternative...
 
P.S. I've tried one and it seems to work quite well (light feeling and
     very good response.)
 
Bruce Blanar
-------
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 __   __   __   Bruce Blanar            |"Everybody need a mood lifter,
|__) | _  |__)  Penn State University   | Everybody need reverse polarity."
|__).|__|.|__). BGB100@PSUVM, BGB@PSUECL|                      -Rush
                voice: (814)862-8036    |
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 15 Nov 89 19:08:52 GMT
From: thelake!steve@UMN-CS.CS.UMN.EDU  (Steve Yelvington)
Subject: Strange programming languages (list)
 
I'm compiling a list of strange programming languages for the ST -- and by
strange I mean those outside the usual BASIC, C, asm, Pascal, Fortran group.
 
I would like to hear (preferably by mail) from anyone who has used
non-mainstream programming languages on the ST, such as:
 
        * Scheme
        * Smalltalk
        * Lisp
        * Icon
        * Perl
        * ADVSYS
        * Etalk
        * and so forth.
 
I would like to have a brief sketch of the language's characteristics,
perhaps an example of what can be done with it, and a note on its
availability. I'm interested in commercial packages as well as
public-domain, shareware and copyleft programs.
 
   -- Steve Yelvington, up at the lake in Minnesota
  ... pwcs.StPaul.GOV!stag!thelake!steve             (UUCP)
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 16 Nov 89 08:06:21 GMT
From: fox!portal!cup.portal.com!Bob_BobR_Retelle@apple.com
Subject: Time to create comp.sys.atari.flames (was Re: RE: Vapourwar
 
Greg Wageman makes some marginally interesting comments about my posting
concerning the "blitter fraud".
 
In the "Real World (tm)", there are things known as Warranties of
Merchantability and Fittness for Purpose.  There are also things known
as Truth in Advertising, and Fraud.
 
Both Commodore Business Machines and Atari Corp. have been forced by
law to produce products they had promised, but which for their own
reasons they didn't want to actually produce.  The Commodore-64 CP/M
module and the Atari XF-551 Disk Drive are two examples.
 
If Greg Wageman had been one of the people who had bought an Atari ST
based on the promises of the Chief Executive Officer of the company, I'm
willing to wager he too would be more than a little upset when the
implied contract was broken.
 
As far as technical details, the "blitter upgrade" had been promised by
many different Atari Corp people over a span of several years.  It was not
something that a stupid executive just happened to blurt out on a TV
"talk show".  There had been upgrades/daughter boards/motherboard swaps
discussed by Atari for years.  This created an expectation of performance
for those who invested in Atari equipment.  Atari obviously expected that
a blitter equipped "vented case" 1040 would pass FCC certification because
they redesigned the motherboard with a blitter socket position.  "Do It
Yourself" blitter upgrades are possible *if* you have the right motherboard.
That leaves us with the question of why Atari didn't do it themselves...
 
I'm left wondering how the STE with its "vented case" design can add
video enhancements and SIMM memory to 4 Megs and still pass FCC certification
if the Blitter would have pushed it over the line.
 
Sorry if I've exceeded my message allowance by posting this reply, and I'm
further sorry if anyone reading this is annoyed that it's not an Atari
cheerleader message.  I don't much care about a blitter chip and I don't
plan to say anything more about the subject.  Atari Corp lied to their
customers, and that annoys *me*
 
I *would* be interested to see what would happen if a group of dissatisfied
Atari customers decided to challenge Atari in court over this issue.
 
BobR
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 16 Nov 89 11:36:37 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!marque!carroll1!dnewton@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
 (Dave 'Post No Nicknames' Newton)
Subject: TT's VME-slots
 
>To Richard E. Covert and others of your philosophy:
>one card isn't really that bad anymore - we already have enough ports
>built-in, and that was the primary purpose of one of these interface
>cards anyway - for simple i/o.
 
   Maybe for you, but not for me:  I like to experiment, have some data
collection cards goin' in unison, have a coprocessor doing some crunching.
 
>Any analog-digital converter SHOULD be designed to plug into a DMA, SCSI
>or some other fast port. This way, it won't be computer specific.
>In general, computer specific hardware addons will be a thing of the past.
 
   Since when is VME a computer-specific thingy?  Seems to me I've seen a
lot of VME-based computers.
   SCSI-basid things would be okay, until you have more than seven.  DMA
is great too, but after a few daisy-chains, how do ya' do it?  (Don't know
how things are accessed using DMA.)
 
>I bet that those card slots in the IBMs aren't much faster if they are at
>all).
 
   Cards in the PC that don't do DMA are clocked at 8MHz on the AT.
 
 
 
--
David L. Newton       | uunet!marque!carroll1!dnewton  | The Raging Apostle--
(414) 524-7343 (work) |    dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu     | for the future--
(414) 524-6809 (home) | 100 NE Ave, Waukesha WI 53186  | for the world.
"Isn't it fun to take two unrelated sentences and mix the batter lightly?" -me
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 16 Nov 89 11:41:00 GMT
From: cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!marque!carroll1!dnewton@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
 (Dave 'Post No Nicknames' Newton)
Subject: Want a fast Atari ST...how about a '030 chip?
 
In article <5626@umd5.umd.edu> matthews@umd5.umd.edu (Mike Matthews) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>>>a '030 chip at 16MHz!!  Reportly this board speeds Spectre GCR
>>--
>As stated many times before, Mhz does not have all that much to do with the
>actual speed.  The whole architecture must be taken into account... One thing
>that slows down Macs is their CPUs handle EVERYTHING.  That includes mouse
>and keyboard activities, floppy/hard disk controls... Really slows things down.
 
   Don't be yellin' at me, _I_ didn't post that it made it run at IIci speeds,
in fact, I think that I said it wouldn't run at IIci speed. No way no how.
And if you're yelling at me for saying it wouldn't run at IIci speed, that's
pretty silly too, 'cuz as bad as Apple's software is, a 25MHz doin' bad will
still beat a 16MHz doin' good.
 
 
--
David L. Newton       | uunet!marque!carroll1!dnewton  | The Raging Apostle--
(414) 524-7343 (work) |    dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu     | for the future--
(414) 524-6809 (home) | 100 NE Ave, Waukesha WI 53186  | for the world.
"Isn't it fun to take two unrelated sentences and mix the batter lightly?" -me
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Thu, 16 NOV 89 12:26:57
From: WOODALLP%VAX1.COMPUTER-CENTRE.BIRMINGHAM.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
 
HI FOLKS,
        AS PC-DITTO II SEEMS DELAYED (CERTAINLY THIS SIDE OF THE POND IN
MAGGIES KINGDOM (MAY SHE REST IN PEACE (SOON!)) THE OPTIONS SEEM TO BE
SUPERCHARGER OR PC-SPEED. I WOULD GO FOR PC-SPEED EXCEPT THAT IT DOES
NOT SUPPORT MATHS C0-PRO (8087) THUS I WOULD LIKE ANSWERS FROM ANY USERS OF
THE ABOVE DEVICES TO A FEW SIMPLE QUESTIONS.
 
1) IS IT POSSIBLE TO PUT AN 8087 ON TO PC-SPEED, IF SO HOW EASY IS IS, IF NOT
IS THERE A POSSIBLITY IN FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS.
 
2)IS THE OLIVETTI SCREEN THAT PC-SPPED EMULATES THE SAME AS THE A.T.&T. 6300
SERIES GRAPHICS DISPLAYS.
 
3) DOES PC-SPEED WORK WITH HYPERCACHE, NOT WILL ONE BENEFIT THE OTHER BUT WILL
THEY SIMPLY RESIDE IN THE SAME MACHINE WITHOUT CRASHES (MEGA 2).
 
4) HOW CHEAP IS IT TO UPGRADE SUPERCHARGER TO 1 MEG.
 
5) DOES SUPERCHARGER WORK WITH ICD CONTROLLERS (ST-WORLD SAID IT DOESNT).
 
IF ANY EUROPEAN READERS (OR AMERICAN COME TO THINK OF IT) CAN ANSWER THESE
THEN PLEASE DO (ESPECIALLY HANS-JORG SACK IF HE READS THIS).
 
 
THANKS  PHIL WOODALL
 
WOODALLP@UK.AC.BHAM.VAX1
 
UNIVERSITY OF BIRMINGHAM DEPT OF ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING
 
 
------------------------------
 
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #663
*****************************************
=========================================================================
