=========================================================================
 
INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Wed,  6 Dec 89       Volume 89 : Issue 762
 
Today's Topics:
                        A few random thoughts
                         C question (3 msgs)
                              Form Doc's
                      GNU C Floating Point Math
                          missing FORM 8/17
                         Rainbow TOS Porblems
                          Seagate 296N, 277N
                            Shareware Mac
                           Spectre printing
                          Still searching...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 04:36:44 GMT
From: bsu-cs!kendall@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu  (Stephen P. Kendall)
Subject: A few random thoughts
Message-ID: <10375@bsu-cs.bsu.edu>
 
I have Atari's VT100 emulator and it works pretty much like a true VT100
terminal (and I have seen a *real* VT100 terminal), even down to the set-up
screens, with the only major flaws being that the warning bell (~G passthru)
is only allowed if the margin bell (a bell EVERY time a line gets close to
the right edge of the screen) is selected.  Also, any term program should
offer the option of exchanging the functions of the delete and backspace keys
to be consistent with Atari-specific applications (after being online for a
while, using an ST word processor is hell!).
 
 
Steve Kendall
kendall@bsu-cs.bsu.edu
00SPKENDALL@bsu-ucs.bsu.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 07:15:16 GMT
From: kayak.cis.ohio-state.edu!thamer@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Mustafa Thamer)
Subject: C question
Message-ID: <74735@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
 
I just tried the following code on my laser C compiler.
char pattern[] = "fred";
 
As a global declaration it worked fine.
As a local declaration (in main) it wouldn't compile unless I put the
word "static" in front of it.  Then it worked fine.
When declared as a static, of course it worked correctly as a global or
a local.  Apparently that is the way to do it as was said in a previous
message.
 
        Case Closed.
 
Mustafa Thamer
 
 
-=-
 
                                "Two days ago I saw a vehicle that'd
                                 haul that tanker.  You wanna get out
                                 of here; you talk to me."
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 07:03:19 GMT
From: kayak.cis.ohio-state.edu!thamer@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Mustafa Thamer)
Subject: C question
Message-ID: <74734@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>
 
In article <875@lzaz.ATT.COM> hcj@lzaz.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) writes:
>NO NO NO
>you can have char *fred[] = "hello";
>or
>char fred[] = ?'h','e','l','l','o','\0'?;
>but not
>char fred[] = "hello";
 
Actually, K&R were not misquoted.  They say on page 84 of "The C Prorogramming
Language" (c)1978,
 
"Character arrays are a special case of initialization, a string may be used
instead of the braces and commas notation:
        char pattern[] = "the";
This is a shorthand for the longer but equivalent
        char pattern[] = ?'t', 'h', 'e', '\0'?;
... "
 
Evidently, the compilers are the ones who don't like it.
 
Did you say you were from Bell Labs, where K&R came from ...
 
-Mustafa Thamer
 
 
 
-=-
 
                                "Two days ago I saw a vehicle that'd
                                 haul that tanker.  You wanna get out
                                 of here; you talk to me."
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 00:44:15 GMT
From: att!dptg!lzaz!hcj@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (HC Johnson)
Subject: C question
Message-ID: <875@lzaz.ATT.COM>
 
In article <8912050802.AA12717@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>,
 S61304@PRIME-A.POLY-SOUTH-WEST.AC.UK (Rat) writes:
> (From "The Masked Rat Fink"   "Computing and Informatics Yr4")
>
> Question.
>
> (This is probably a really silly one to any C wizards, but I'm only a BASIC
> wizard!)
>
> Why wont Sozobon, Lattice or any other C compiler I've tried compile the
> following, from K&R?
>
> main()
>      $
>      char fred[] = "Some string constant";
>      <rest of routine>
>
>
> This has been confusing me for a while, as K&R (surely correct!) would
> seem to indicate that this is indeed permissible!
 
NO NO NO
 
you can have char *fred[] = "hello";
or
char fred[] = ?'h','e','l','l','o','\0'?;
 
but not
char fred[] = "hello";
 
char *fred[] is an array of pointers, the first points to the string "hello"
 
char fred[] is an array of chars, 6 in my example.
 
 
Howard C. Johnson
ATT Bell Labs
att!lzaz!hcj
hcj@lzaz.att.com
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 07:14:41 GMT
From: oahu!stephen@cs.ucla.edu  (Steve Whitney)
Subject: Form Doc's
Message-ID: <29778@shemp.CS.UCLA.EDU>
 
In article <473eecf4.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert)
 writes:
[lots of stuff deleted]
`Hey, it doesn't seem like many folks like the TeX docs to form.
`
`Must be some form of Elitest mentatlity to post docs to a program
`in a format that 99% of the people don't use.
`
`Hey, if you are good enough you will have TeX, right? :-)
 
But you don't need TeX.  There's a nice program called DVI2SLM that prints
DVI files on the SLM804.  What?  You don't have one?  Oops.  :-)
 
`Oh well, it could have been done in nroff, which at least most UN*X
`people have access to.
`
`--
` Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx)
`  (602) - 581-4652
`|  AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ   |
` UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr
 
 
--
Steve Whitney   "It's never _really_ the last minute"       (())_-_(())
UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student                                | (* *) |
Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu              UCLA Bruin-->    ?  \_@_/  ?
GEnie:    S.WHITNEY                                           `-----'
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 00:14:31 GMT
From:
 cs.utexas.edu!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!ria!uwovax!7103_26
 22@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu  (Eric Smith)
Subject: GNU C Floating Point Math
Message-ID: <4460.257c1397@uwovax.uwo.ca>
 
In article <3497@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU>, esp_05@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Stdnt 05)
 writes:
> Does anyone have any experience with GNU C and using floating point
> math?  From my brief experiences of trying to write some 3D animation
> in GNU C (or should I say my brief run-in with GNU C) I have uncovered
> an unreasonably large number of errors in the floating point handling.
> Admittedly, a number of them cleared up when I stopped using -mshort,
> even though I used -lpml16 whenever I used -mshort.
>
You don't mention what version of GNU C you're using. The latest version
(1.36) is considerably better at floating point. The libraries are also
considerably improved. I don't use floating point much, so I don't know
how good the pml is, but I do know that the weird errors I used to get
with printf(), etc. are gone now.
>
> Any ideas or suggestions?  After comparing GNU C with an ancient copy
> of the original (c.1986) Megamax C, with Megamax C blowing GNU C away,
> I'll probably get Laser C next month anyway.
 
I purged Laser C from my hard drive a while back. I found its libraries
very incomplete and somewhat buggy, and the compiler itself was frustrating.
It does have a nice math library, so if you're most concerned with floating
point it might be OK for you. If you do a lot of porting of code from Unix,
you might also want to look at Mark Williams C, which I hear is good.
--
Eric R. Smith                     email:
Dept. of Mathematics            ERSMITH@uwovax.uwo.ca
University of Western Ontario   ERSMITH@uwovax.bitnet
London, Ont. Canada N6A 5B7
ph: (519) 661-3638
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 08:25:55 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!nuug!ifi!m2cs.uu.no!tomas@uunet.uu.net  (Tomas Felner)
Subject: missing FORM 8/17
Message-ID: <1989Dec6.082555.8633@m2cs.uu.no>
 
rcdsdgx@dutrun.UUCP (Dik Groot) writes:
>The system manager of the Dutch backbone (hp4nl) told me that the
>following file was not received in any country in Europe. I would be
>very glad if the moderator of Comp.binaries.atari.st would repost.
 
><34846@grapevine.uucp>  FORM part 8 of 17  (archive V08i074)
 
Didn't make it to Norway, either. Please repost.
 
Tomas
--
                          Tomas Felner
     Modula-2 CASE Systems AS  |  Internet: tomas@m2cs.uu.no
            Maridalsveien 139  |  Phone: +47 2 379784
        N-0461 Oslo 4, Norway  |  FAX: +47 2 356448
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 16:34:01 GMT
From: mcsun!cernvax!ethz!chris@uunet.uu.net  (Christian Dreyer)
Subject: Rainbow TOS Porblems
Message-ID: <2751@ethz.UUCP>
 
I`ve upgraded my Mega 2 with the new 1.4-ROMs and they`re working without
any problem. The only problem is with the patches (TOSFIX.PRG I think they`re
called). Having booted with those in the AUTO-folder, my virus-killer
(Sagrotan 4.14) responds! Any suggestions? Thanks!
 
 
--
   $      Chris  Dreyer      St. Gall Graduate School for Economic and    $
   $      Student            Social Science, Switzerland                  $
   $      DREYER@CSGHSG5A.BITNET      !cernvax!ethz!chris (UUCP)          $
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 89 14:49:45 EST
From: Stephen Harold Goldstein <steveg@SAIC.COM>
Subject: Seagate 296N, 277N
Message-ID: <8912061949.AA01045@NARNIA.SAIC.COM>
 
For those interested, I picked up a Seagate 277N (65Meg) drive at the
D.C. AtariFest, and got similar performace figures to those posted for
the 296N - ?55KB/sec for 1:1, and ?330KB/sec for 1:2.  I was in
desperate need of the extra space, so I wasn't too disappointed with
having to go 1:2, and I really haven't noticed that much of a
difference - should only show up on massive file moves.  Then again,
seeing 500+KB/sec on my other drive (the 30Meg mech. from my Supra 30)
is enough to make me curious about tweaking 1:1 out of the 277N.  I'm
using a Supra host adaptor (from the old drive), Supra software, and
Toad Computers' 1/2 height under the Mega style HD case -- a little
pricey ($119), but I needed its form factor.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 4 Dec 89 15:10:26 GMT
From:
 snorkelwacker!spdcc!merk!alliant!linus!nixbur!nixpbe!peun11!capit@media-lab.med
 ia.mit.edu  (Capitain)
Subject: Shareware Mac
Message-ID: <705@nixpbe.UUCP>
 
Hi, I'm the one who offered the Shareware Emulator. Our backbone in
the US was out of order for the last weeks, so I missed the beginning of
this debate. But now we are back, and I have some comments on various
articles. I didn't include copies of all statements because of the length
of the article.
 
> I'm sorry for posting this here but my reply to the 'sender' just bounced.
 
This may be due to the problems with our backbone. But I received mail
only from Europe yet. Could someone please try to mail again to check the
connection?
 
> The effort could be better expended. Let's face it: it's hard to
> write an emulator like this. It's taken Dave Small a long time to get
> his working as well as it does.
 
If I had to start from scratch, it would be very hard work, indeed. But as
I mentioned in my first letter, the emulator is ready. It has been on the
market in Europe since 1987. The only thing I have to do is to re-develop
some utilities around the emulator, which haven't been written by myself.
(For example tools for configuring the emulator, transferring software from
the Mac to the ST, and so on...)
 
> You should not go out and write a share-ware version of someone's
> package IF you are *worried* about hurting their business. My point is that,
> given the very small size of the ST market, we *should* be worried about
> GBS's future. I'm not saying that it is morally wrong to write a shareware
> Mac emulator; I'm just saying that writing it will hurt GBS, and given
> the small size of GBS and the quality of their products, it is not in any
> ST user's interests to hurt them.
 
I was very surprised about how much you were concerned with the future of
GBS (with respect to the shareware emulator, of course). I'd really like to
see any comments from Dave Small on the whole topic. In the past, he hasn't
been too shy to comment on Aladin...
Besides: I'm a small (one-man-part-time-)"company" too.
 
> Yes, I'm sure there would be interest in a good shareware MAC emulator..
> But Dave Small has established the standards here for what a MAC emulator
> should do, and how it should perform...
> (Playing "Devil's Advocate",) do you think you can compete with the Spectre
> Mac emulator..?
 
As I said in my first letter, I know the emulator I'm offering is not
state-of-the-art, because it supports only the 64K Roms and it can't read
Original Mac Disks. Otherwise, it would be shareware. I think there
wouldn't be much harm to Spectre GCR. But again, I'd like to hear from
Dave.
 
> So, YES I will support the ALADIN, for the reasons I stated above,
> because I've seen an earlier ALADIN version running, and because
> Germans have proved they love the ST and their software is almost
> perfect (Tempus, Modula-2,LABEL-EXPRESS)
 
Although the shareware emulator IS the emulator of the ALADIN product, it
will be named different.
 
> In order not to violate Apple's copyrights, ROMS must be made available
> for this guy by way of a cartridge.
 
Correct. You'll have to get the ROMs on a cartridge to be able to use the
emulator. (See my first letter.)
 
> In fairness to David Small and as an obvious business move, don't make the
> cartridge steal his thunder. (His software has checks to make sure the ROMS
> are in one of his cartridges and aren't EPROMS. Making a cartridge to get
> around this like the Discovery cartridge tries to results only in OUTRIGHT
> PIRACY of his software for use with the alternate cartridge. Also, if the
> cartridge is compatible, VIRTUALLY NO ONE WILL EVER  USE THE SHAREWARE
> SOFTWARE OR PAY THE FEE: they'll just use his software and hurt his business
> AND yours.)
 
I'm absolutely not planning to pirate anybody's software!!! The emulator
will not allow anybody to run Spectre without the Spectre's cartridge!!!
This is a product totally of its own, developed by myself without ever
looking at any code of Dave Small! (I prefer my own and Apple's code.)
 
> Spectre is reasonably priced and therefore a shareware version is not
> going to be particularly competitive and therefore should be expected
> to be poorly maintained.  Thus substituting a poor piece of work for a
> good piece of work.
 
Have you ever seen or heard of ALADIN? How can you talk about it as
"a poor piece of work" ???
 
> The only way that "small" enters the picture is that a small business is
> less able to afford to defend itself against predatory behavior.
 
That's exactly why the German company isn't selling ALADIN any more: because
they couldn't afford defending themselves against Apple Germany. The trials
would have been too expensive.
 
> According to press reports, the Aladin system included illegal copies of
> the Macintosh ROMs, and Apple shot the product down. The developers have
> every right to convert their work into a legal product which Apple has no
> way to affect. DAVID SMALL HAD TO DO THIS! Early versions of the Magic Sac
> project were altered so that only legal Mac ROMs could be used, and the
> ROMs must be physically present (not illegally copied on disk, or
> whatever). He WAS stomped on by Apple. THAT is why he NOW has no trouble
> with Apple: he altered what might have been an illegal product into what
> is demonstrably legal. To me it makes more sense for the Aladin group to
> do likewise and to keep the product commercial, than to convert the system
> to just an illegal shareware system rather than an illegal product. I
> actually give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming that they will
> take the cartridge-and-ROM route to legality anyway, despite a lack of anu
> such indication : the mail suggested making Aladin more-or-less as-is
> shareware - which would certainly be illegal and upon which Apple would
> certainly stomp.
> ...
> From published reports, he WAS not pleased with the Discovery cartridge
> "feature", nor with the nature of Aladin's competition (since they used
> on-disk copies of the ROMs and he couldn't).
 
We NEVER used on-disk copies of the Roms! I don't know which press you're
reading and where they get their information from, but your's is certainly
false!
There were two trials against Aladin (1987 and 1989). In both trials Apple
Germany went to the judge with ridiculous "facts" about Aladin and the Mac.
Did you know, for example, that the "Finder" is responsible for the User
Interface of the Mac, because it's the software, which draws windows,
dialog boxes etc...? Apple Germany used informations of this kind in the
court. But - again - we just couldn't afford the trials. The sum in
dispute has been 3,000,000 DM.
There was a pirated version of Aladin in 1987, which had the Roms on disk.
(There have been pirated versions of Magic Sac and Spectre 1.75 too.)
But certainly it wasn't we who pirated our own software. Since then, Aladin
hasn't been pirated anymore because of a new copy protection scheme.
 
Is it true, that Dave Small has got troubles with Apple USA? If so, I'd
like to know more about it (sorry Dave, asking you again).
 
> This other guy (I wish I knew his name! I'm not intentionally being
> insulting) got stomped on by Apple, and was put out of business.
 
Here he is:
 
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
!  Pit Capitain, DX-PC  !  US:  ...uunet!philabs!linus!nixbur!capitain.pad  !
!  Nixdorf Computer AG  !  not US:    ...?mcvax!?unido!nixpbe!capitain.pad  !
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Dec 89 12:08:37 GMT
From: mcsun!prlb2!prlbcom!vub!efdirkx@uunet.uu.net  (Erik Dirkx)
Subject: Spectre printing
Message-ID: <560@vub.UUCP>
 
Has anybody heard of a public domain printer driver for an Epson FX
compatible printer that can run under Spectre128 ? I've tried "PrintWorks
for the Mac", but that one generates a nice crash. It's great being able to run
MSWord 4.0 and other recent MAC stuff, but my enthousiasm was gone very quickly
when I tried to print without succes. I hope anyone can help me out.
 
        Daan Van Heghe
        Brussels Free University
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 6 Dec 89 03:12:50 GMT
From: haven!uvaarpa!hudson!bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU!gl8f@ames.arc.nasa.gov  (Greg
 Lindahl)
Subject: Still searching...
Message-ID: <2401@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>
 
In article <874@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (Buce Szablak) writes:
 
>(Someone posted the suggestion that Atari follow Next's example when they
>introduce the TT, and package GCC and utilities with each machine; that would
>be a SMART move. I won't hold my breath...)
 
Actually, it seems kind of silly to me. MOST ST's don't have the memory
or disk needed to run GCC, and MOST ST buyers don't know C. NeXT puts
GCC with their machine because it's a workstation.
 
Can you only imagine the confusion of buyers who receive 10 disks of
software, with no instructions, that they have no idea how to use, and
that they probably don't have the resources to run?
 
Now what Atari ought to do is make sure we PD developers can purchase
reasonably-priced documentation somewhere. I don't need phone support,
but I sure could use docs. The ST docs eventually became available from
3rd party sources, but I'd like to see STe and TT docs before 1991...
 
------
Greg Lindahl
 
------------------------------
 
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #762
*****************************************
