=========================================================================
 
INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Sun, 10 Dec 89       Volume 89 : Issue 786
 
Today's Topics:
        Document distribution policy (was: FORM, nice but...)
                FLAMES and SUPPORT IN THE MINUS REALM
                          FORM, nice but...
                             Lattice C v5
                             Lattice V v5
                    ST Dealer favors MAC Money...
                        Who owns the ROM code?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 10 Dec 89 14:22:44 GMT
From: maytag!water!ljdickey@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu  (L.J.Dickey)
Subject: Document distribution policy (was: FORM, nice but...)
Message-ID: <2828@water.waterloo.edu>
 
In article <34894@grapevine.uucp> koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm)
 writes:
 
>Heck, I couldn't even print the thing out on my Sun.  Distributing straight
>TeX documentation would be fine, as the TeX source is at least very human-
>readable, but DVI struck me as a bit silly as well.
 
Please, let's distribut either plain text docs or source in some
markup language such as TeX or TROFF or (gasp) GML.
 
I resent having to cut down a tree to find out what the docs are about.
For large documents I find it easier to use regular expressions in a
text editor or with something like "grep" to find references to some
particular subject.
 
I further resent the fact that to reproduce the examples in the docs,
one has to re-type them by hand.
 
The author's claim for efficeincy may be right for one person
only, and that is the one who uses the pages to print hundreds
of copies on small paper.  It does not make sense for people who
print pages on paper that is A4 size or 8.5 by 11 inches.  There
is a lot of white space there!
 
--
    L. J. Dickey, Faculty of Mathematics, University of Waterloo.
        ljdickey@water.UWaterloo.ca     ljdickey@water.BITNET
        ljdickey@water.UUCP             ..!uunet!watmath!water!ljdickey
        ljdickey@water.waterloo.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 10 Dec 89 02:11:15 GMT
From: cadre.dsl.pitt.edu!pitt!cuphub!kar7481@pt.cs.cmu.edu  (Dan
 Karbowsky;AtariEliteOfPghPa bbs412-384-5609)
Subject: FLAMES and SUPPORT IN THE MINUS REALM
Message-ID: <2369@cuphub.cup.edu>
 
In article <1864@atari.UUCP>, kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) writes:
> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (Buce Szablak) writes:
>
......
 
> I'm not way off base. I may be wrong in your case, and in fact I may be
> wrong in the case of every person who reads comp.sys.atari.st!  But
> active members of online communities aren not by any means
> representative samples of ST owners.  If the online community were more
> ubiquitous, I would grant that your experiences were representative,
> but it isn't, so I can't.  My opinion is based on my experience working
> in a computer store, working with user groups, supporting development
> tools, and talking with Atari's user group and developer support people.
> Users, by and large, want to use their computers.
>
> As far as supporting hobbyist programmers, I take a pragmatic stance.
> How much PD software comes from where is not directly important to a
> computer maker.  It is certainly indirectly important, because a wide
> variety of PD tools make a computer a lot more attractive to the
> informed buyer.  But a wide variety of professional products make a
> computer more attractive to the market at large.  A lot of people buy
> the computer that runs the software that they want to run.  That is why
> it is vital for computer makers to have a broad commercial software
> base for their machines.  In order for that to happen, strong support
> for the companies that produce that software must exist.
>
> A side effect of having strong support for professional programmers is
> that end users get supported as well.  More books get written by the
> professionals, making more information available to the hobbyist than
> the computer maker can hope to provide.  A broader base of technically
> competent people exist to answer the questions of hobbyist programmers.
> All these programmers will be happy because they can get their
> questions answered and they can solve their problems without having to
> stumble around in the dark too much.
>
> Every customer is a valued customer.  You are an espeically valued
> customer, because you take the time to give feedback on how you think
> Atari is doing.  I'm sorry that my attitude bothers you, but I think
> that it's a practical one.  I hope that I've clarified where I'm coming
> from.
>
> Please note: the opinions expressed in this article are mine and mine
> alone.  Atari has its own.
>
> --
>    |||   Ken Badertscher  (ames!atari!kbad)
>    |||   Atari R&D System Software Engine
>   / | \  #include <disclaimer>
--
 
*** * ****   **** **** **** **** *** * **** ****    # / ### ### #
* * * *  *   *  * *    *    *___ * * * *    *___    #/  #__ # # #
* * * *  *   *  * ***  ***  *    * * *  *** *       #\  #   # # #
* *** ****   **** *    *    **** * *** ___* **** ,  # \ ### # ### ,
 
 BUT HAVEN'T YOU REALIZED THAT THE GENERAL CONSENSUS OF PERSONS ON THIS
 
 NEWSGROUP SEEM TO BE ***QUITE PISSED OFF*** AT ATARI FOR NOT GIVING
 
 ANY REALISTIC SUPPORT IN ANY WAY TO ANY ST USERS/PROGRAMMERS/WHATEVERS
 
 AND YOU HAVE (in the past 3 weeks since our site has had this newsgroup,anyway)
 
 NOT REALLY _STRENGTHENED_ ATARI'S OVERALL PICTURE IN THE EYES OF AT LEAST
 
 THIS PROGRAMER/USER/etc... AND MORE THAN LIKELY--A ((FEW)) OTHERS TOO!!!
 
             [ hell couldn't be this hot ]
 
 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Dan Karbowsky      kar7481@pitt!cuphub /   S U P P O R T  T H E  S T ! ! !  |
 | 102 Lee Drive      ___________________/Call the ATARI ELITE of PITTSBURGH'S |
 | Belle Vernon, PA  / BBS (Forem-ST,fnet node 19)  at (412) 384-5609 at 300   |
 | 15012   U.S.A.   / thru 19.2k baud 24 hrs./day 7-days/week   Mention this   |
 |                 / message at logon.                                         |
 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 10 Dec 89 14:48:42 GMT
From: maytag!water!ljdickey@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu  (L.J.Dickey)
Subject: FORM, nice but...
Message-ID: <2829@water.waterloo.edu>
 
In article <17700@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> dav@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
a sensible fellow named William David Haas writes:
 
 | But.... you shouldn't distribute the .dvi.  If someone can print the dvi
 | file
 | he probably can create it given the .tex file.  I would suggest including
 |
 | raw text doc file - ain't pretty but it works.
 | .tex file      - those who want to create and print the dvi file can
 |
 | this makes the distribution smaller and is just as useful
                                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This makes it MORE useful.
 
It is a big advantage to be able to extract examples of code from the text.
 
A second advantage (for me) is that if I chose to do so, I may select
a style that prints a different size of page, more closely approximating
a size of paper available to me.  (A5 is not one of them).
 
--
    L. J. Dickey, Faculty of Mathematics, University of Waterloo.
        ljdickey@water.UWaterloo.ca     ljdickey@water.BITNET
        ljdickey@water.UUCP             ..!uunet!watmath!water!ljdickey
        ljdickey@water.waterloo.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 10 Dec 89 11:47:21 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!harrier.ukc.ac.uk!gos.ukc.ac.uk!dac@uunet.uu.net  (David Clear)
Subject: Lattice C v5
Message-ID: <2687@gos.ukc.ac.uk>
 
In article <31162@pbhya.PacBell.COM> dbsuther@PacBell.COM (Daniel B. Suthers)
 writes:
[ About HiSoft taking over Lattice C.]
>
>Is there any confirmation on this rummor?
>I have spent a lot of time getting Lattice to be relatively bug free, and don't
>wish to switch compilers now.
>
>Does anyone have the address for HiSoft?  Are they American, or de we have
>to put up with the six week trans atlantic mail delay?
>
>Last question:  is HiSoft V5 an upgrade to lattice, or just a replacement?  The
>difference is obvious to those who have extensive private code libraries.
>
 
I got a newsletter from HiSoft in October. This is what it said about
Lattice C:
 
-- START --
 
HiSoft & Lattice get together!
------------------------------
 
HiSoft is delighted to announce the forthcoming release of the Lattice C
compiler on the Atari ST.
 
Lattice C 5 is currently only available on the Amiga, where is has received
high praise - its code generation is one of the fastest and most compact yet
seen on microcomputers.
 
Now, HiSoft and Lattice are porting the package to the Atari ST and taking the
opportunity to add extra features to produce a product that will bring the very
latest C compiler technology to the Atari ST, generating the best code ever
seen from any Atari C compiler.
 
The version 5 compiler has many improvements over Lattice 3, including:
 
+  Powerful compiler generating native code, with complete ANSI conformance.
 
+  High performance global optimiser for removing redundant code from your
   programs.
 
+  Standard assembler for including assembly language in compiled code.
 
+  Fast linker with many features including automatic branch extension (for
   out of range branches).
 
+  Librarian for examining and constructing libraries quickly and easily.
 
+  Disassembler so you can check the code the compiler has generated and hand
   optimise if needed.
 
+  Complete time sliced profiler for locating the `hot-spots' in your code.
 
+  Fully integrated HiSoft environment, with complete configurability.
 
+  Lattice 3, Lattice 5, ANSI, UN*X, AES, VDI, BIOS, XBIOS, GEMDOS and Line A
   libraries, the most complete libraries ever.
 
Lattice C 5 on the Atari ST will be released in November 1989 at an
introductorary price of 99.95 (pounds sterling) inclusive. We expect a high
demand for this product and will process orders strictly by date received -
place your orders now.
 
--END --
 
I don't know about HiSoft in other countries, but in the UK, their address is:
 
HiSoft,
The Old School,
Greenfield,
Bedford,
MK45 5DE,
UK.
 
From UK:
        Tel: (0525) 718181
        Fax: (0525) 713716
 
From elsewhere:
        Tel: +44 525 718181
        Fax: +44 525 713716
 
 
Oh yes,
 
1. I have no connection to HiSoft - I'm just a registered user of their
   DevpacST assembler.
 
2. I don't know if Lattice 5 has been released yet. Maybe when I can afford
   a memory upgrade I'll start thinking about C programming on the ST.
 
3. The 99.95 introductorary price may still hold - I really don't know. Nor
   do I know the US cost.
 
4. I don't know much, do I :-)
 
Disclaimer:
     I just read all that stuff from a newsletter and my eyesight and typing
aren't faultless. So don't blame me if Lattice 5 turns out to be Xenon III :-(
 
 
Dave.
 
--
% cc life.c                      | David Clear <dac@ukc.ac.uk>
% a.out                          | Computer Science, University of Kent,
Segmentation fault (core dumped) | Canterbury, England.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 89 14:28:22 GMT
From: Chris Ridd <RiddCJ%computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk@NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK>
Subject: Lattice V v5
Message-ID: <8912101428.aa07925@benjamin.Cs.Bham.AC.UK>
 
In digest #785 Dan Suthers wrote:
>In article <8911301233.aa02350@benjamin.Cs.Bham.AC.UK>
> RiddCJ@computer-science.birmingham.ac.UK (Chris Ridd) writes:
>>?stuff deleted?
>> HiSoft have taken over Lattice C - v5
>?stuff deleted?
>Is there any confirmation on this rummor?
 
It is not a rumor, it is absolute fact!  I have seen the HiSoft adverts in
ST World (UK magazine) and have seen the HiSoft packaging.  Haven't seen
the program yet :-)  Cross my heart, hope to be flamed :-)  The package
contains completely new compiler, linker, optimiser, libraries, cli,
environment (probably like Devpac), and it is claimed, produces faster code
than Turbo C! (>2000 Dhrystones for Turbo's 1690).
They are a UK company, but their stuff (WERCS etc) is distributed in the US
by Michtron.
  HiSoft,
   The Old School,
    Greenfield,
     Bedford MK45 5DE
      ENGLAND
The upgrade price is 59 pounds sterling, the new price is 99.95 pounds
sterling.  Phone them on 0525 718181 for more details.
 
    Chris
 
/*
 * Snail mail address:
 * Chris Ridd,                   "Wave after wave, each mightier than the last
 * School of Computer Science,  'Til last, a ninth one, gathering half the deep
 * Birmingham University,         And full of voices, slowly rose and plunged
 * UK                              Roaring, and all the wave was in a flame"
 *
 */
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 10 Dec 89 02:23:58 GMT
From: cadre.dsl.pitt.edu!pitt!cuphub!kar7481@PT.CS.CMU.EDU  (Dan
 Karbowsky;AtariEliteOfPghPa bbs412-384-5609)
Subject: ST Dealer favors MAC Money...
Message-ID: <2370@cuphub.cup.edu>
 
Dealer support DOES seem to be dying....
 
The primary ST dealer here in the Pittsburgh area has sold off
ALL EXISTING ATARI HARDWARE/SOFTWARE INVENTORY AND REFUSES TO STOCK ANYTHING
UNTIL "Atari gets their marketing act together..."
 
Gee...I thought AUTHORIZED ATARI DEALERS WERE *REQUIRED* TO KEEP DISPLAY
MODELS >>ON DISPLAY<<!!!???
 
Anyway, he INSISTS he is NOT dropping his Atari-Certification.
 
 
Hmmph. An AUTHORIZED ATARI DEALER WHO DOESN'T ADVERTISE ATARI'S BUT
 
HAS ( Are you listening "Atari-network-ears"?) AN ENTIRE SHOWROOM OF MAC'S
AND APPLE ][ and //gs products!!!!!!!!!! Again... NO ST STUFF VISIBLE!!!!!
 
 
--
 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Dan Karbowsky      kar7481@pitt!cuphub /   S U P P O R T  T H E  S T ! ! !  |
 | 102 Lee Drive      ___________________/Call the ATARI ELITE of PITTSBURGH'S |
 | Belle Vernon, PA  / BBS (Forem-ST,fnet node 19)  at (412) 384-5609 at 300   |
 | 15012   U.S.A.   / thru 19.2k baud 24 hrs./day 7-days/week   Mention this   |
 |                 / message at logon.                                         |
 +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 89 13:37:42 GMT
From: Chris Ridd <RiddCJ%computer-science.birmingham.ac.uk@NSFnet-Relay.AC.UK>
Subject: Who owns the ROM code?
Message-ID: <8912101337.aa07879@benjamin.Cs.Bham.AC.UK>
 
In digest #770 Richard Covert writes:
>In article <8912061211.aa03001@benjamin.Cs.Bham.AC.UK>,
> RiddCJ@computer-science.birmingham.ac.UK (Chris Ridd) writes:
>>For a fairly simple enhancement to GEM, how about allowing more windows, like
>>16, instead of the current meagre 8?
>
> ?stuff deleted?
> ... Added such features would increase the size of the ROM code.
>
> In fact, I would rather that Atari incorporate your suggestions into the TT.
 
  My point was Richard, that the enhancement could be easily made IMHO and
would improve life on the basic STs.  Adding such features would NOT increase
the size of the ROM code, but would eat at a little RAM (how much RAM does
GEM need for a window, by the way? can't be more than a couple of 100 bytes)
 
  TOS '030 has a limited future in my book, with the release of a real Unix
TT with X-Windows (or something) sometime in the 90's.  As we've heard before,
a multi-tasking TOS is probably out of the question.
 
>Hey, I like MS WRITE!!! I bought it a year ago and for the few letters that
>I write MS WRITE is fine.
 
  I agree!  Lots of people don't have working copies of Write here in the UK
although I do.  Nice design.  Shame Microsoft didn't sell Atari the sources,
just the binaries...
 
     Chris
 
/*
 * Snail mail address:
 * Chris Ridd,                   "Wave after wave, each mightier than the last
 * School of Computer Science,  'Til last, a ninth one, gathering half the deep
 * Birmingham University,         And full of voices, slowly rose and plunged
 * UK                              Roaring, and all the wave was in a flame"
 *
 */
 
------------------------------
 
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #786
*****************************************
