Info-Atari16 Digest         Fri,  5 Jul 91       Volume 91 : Issue 375
 
Today's Topics:
                       68030 expansion for STe
                     Amiga is better then what???
                       Atari vs Amiga (2 msgs)
                  Elvis unusable on german keyboard
                     Hardware Upgrading Questions
                    How is Atari doing in Europe?
                           Mega STe wanted
                    Multitasking for ST (to sell)
                         STalker/STeno v3.0?
          Stealth (was STalker 3.0/Flash upgrade?) (2 msgs)
                              SUBSCRIBE
                        SUBSCRIBE - Yan Fa LI
                         This week's program
                            TT <--> MsDos
                             TT Monitors
                               Wargames
                    what Atari DOES have (2 msgs)
 
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 06:25:11 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-
 state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!linac!mp.cs.niu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.iastate.edu!vax
 f.iastate.edu!TNFW0@arizona (Steven Ourada)
Subject: 68030 expansion for STe
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
I have read vague hints of such a beast, could someone give me a little detail?
 
*******************************************************************************
* Steven Ourada   Email: TNFW0@vax.iastate.edu or ar550@Cleveland.freenet.edu *
* Iowa State student, Atari user, all around nice guy...                      *
* "In order to remember your dreams, you must think of them as if they were   *
* little kittens." -- Ubiquitous song quote, King Missle                      *
*******************************************************************************
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 12:34:21 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorke
 lwacker.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!fauern!faui43.informatik.uni-erlangen.de!csbrod@ariz
 ona.edu (Claus Brod)
Subject: Amiga is better then what???
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch) writes:
 
>>All ST software which uses the OS graphics routines will be speeded up by
>>the blitter.  Many programs which *don't* use the OS have blitter support
>>as well, since ST blitters have been around since 1987.
 
>That uses the graphics routines.  and how many don't?  how many do?
 
Nearly every program does. There are some, like Tempus, which use
hand-tailored screen output routines (which is considered illegal),
but even those programs will profit from the blitter when displaying
dialogs, windows and menus.
 
>>What "same thing" were they trying to do?  Implement an Amiga OS, perchance?
 
>No, actually it was a book from Compute Books called "3d Graphics programming
>in C" or some such, don't have it handy since it's in storage.  No they
>weren't implementing the Amiga OS, they were implementing standard 3d drawing
>algoriths.
 
So they probably had no idea how to use the VDI graphics library. Which is,
IMHO, at least as easy to program as the Amigas gfx library.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Claus Brod, Am Felsenkeller 2,                  Things. Take. Time.
D-8772 Marktheidenfeld, Germany                 (Piet Hein)
csbrod@medusa.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
Claus_Brod@wue.maus.de
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 4 Jul 91 03:57:16 GMT
From: touch!mikeh@uunet.uu.net (Mike Haas)
Subject: Atari vs Amiga
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
>In article <1991Jul1.021747.3404@world.std.com> azog@world.std.com (azog-thoth)
 writes:
>>Atari _and_ the Amiga is a toy, OK? VMS is a real multitasking system, fact.
 
Lessee.. VMS... oh yeah, the one that's dog shit slow (tyr having some
of those users LOG ON!)
 
Also, VMS only allows the file system to go 8 levels deep...no farther.
 
And the priorities to configuring things like a serial driver or
print spooler actually lock-out (mutual exclusion) valuable feature
combinations (try getting a terminal handler to deal with lines over
510 chars in length).
 
Yup... a REAL <***> operating system!
 
PS: How's DEC doing these days?  How are VAXStation sales lately?
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 07:50:45 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!r
 jast1@arizona.edu (Robert J Anisko)
Subject: Atari vs Amiga
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
  Hmm, seems as IBM and Apple are joining forces in future technology
(according to the paper).  So while we're bickering between Atari and
COmmodore, it's two biggest threats are going to combine forces - ought
to be REAL interesting to see what the future holds in store for BOTH
the ST and Amiga...
 
                                        Robert Anisko
                                        rjast1@unix.cis.pitt.edu
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 08:37:05 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!warwick!cs.warwick.ac.uk!leam!ob@uunet.uu.net (Oliver Bonten)
Subject: Elvis unusable on german keyboard
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
sievert@gypsy.ims.fhg.de (Karsten Sievert) writes:
 
>All <alt><shift>-keys generate <a><s>... key sequences. But on our
>keyboard all the special "UNIX" characters like [,],{,},\ and so on are
>shift-alt-combinations.
 
>You shure can map them in INPUT-mode, but what about the command line?
 
':map! #<a>; [' works in input- and command mode. It doesn't, however, work
in ':'-mode. But most unfortunately <alt>-"o and <alt>-<shift>-"o produce
the same code, so they can't be mapped to '[' and '{' respectively.
 
Oliver
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 4 Jul 91 20:17:02 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!wciu!abode!scale@arizona.e
 du (Luis Outumuro)
Subject: Hardware Upgrading Questions
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
In article <1991Jul3.151434.927@vax.oxford.ac.uk> ameij@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>Dear Chums,
>
>Three questions about hardware...
>
>1) I want to fit a hard disk to my Mega 2 ST. Has anyone any experience of
>internal ones? I think the box is dead neat, and would prefer not to add
>another.
>
>2) Does anyone know the status of the putative Atari-UK DMA port transputer add
>on box? There were strong rumours about it around 8 months ago, but since I
>have heard nothing.
>
>3) I may want lots more numerical bang. Would I be better to buy a TT (I
>imagine I would need the maths coprocessor, if that's an option) or an ATW?
>Can anyone let me know how much an ATW is in Britain these days?
>
>
>Jan Ameij
>ameij @ uk.ac.oxford.vax
>
>PS _Particularly_ re question 3 - Please please please don't tell me I need an
>IBM/Amiga/Mac something instead. I shall consider all the options. I am here to
>request info on Atari products...
 
        Hi Jan,
                Well about putting an internal hard drive inside of your
Mega ST2; personally I would recommend using the ICD AdSCSI Micro Adapter.
The AdSCSI Micro plugs directly in the the Mega ST's internal DMA port and a
power connector already provided for (by Atari) on the inside of the machine.
The AdSCSI Micro also includes a mounting bracket (the holes are already in
the Mega ST's motherboard, you won't have to do any drilling), cables,
software and manual.
        One note though, use a hard drive with low power requirements.....
such as the Conner or Quantum hard drive mechanisms.  Bye..........
 
                                        Luis
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 11:05:05 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!ira.uka.de
 !sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de!rusmv1!news@arizona.edu (Joerg Ballschmiter)
Subject: How is Atari doing in Europe?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
In <1991Jun17.190053.7342@clinet.fi> likos@clinet.fi writes:
 
> grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Graham S Thomas) writes:
> Z
> >From article <1991Jun14.010821.9903@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, by
 yegerleh@vivaldi.ecn.purdue.edu (James D Yegerlehner):
> >> I don't think Atari is making much of a splash over here (yet?)
> >> with the new STEs and TTs, but can any of you guys over in Europe
> >> say how the new machines are being received there?  Is Atari
> >> maintaining the significant market share that it once had?
>
> >I'm fairly sure Atari's market share in the UK is declining.  Most STs
> >here have been sold as games machines, and judging from the relative
> >amounts of software in the shops and the number and thickness of
> >magazines on the newsstands, the Amiga's winning hands down in that
> >arena.
>
> >Anything else has been niche marketing.  The TT is more expensive here
> >than in some other countries, partly because Atari don't expect to sell
> >many.  The Mega STE hasn't even been released here yet - it's just been
> >delayed even further until the beginning of July.
>
> >Atari are still selling a fair number of STFMs (still!) and STEs, and
> >the existing number of installed machines means that games and music
> >software will continue to be produced here, along with the occasional
> >non-games product.  Also, Atari UK have started to advertise the ST as a
> >'serious' computer again.  But, in my opinion, it's too little, too
> >late.  The best is not yet to come.
>
> >Graham
> >--
> >Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK
> >Email: grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk   Phone: +44 273 678165   Fax: .. 685865
> __________________________________________________________________________
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Sorry, GUIs to dis-a-point you, but there is no future at all.
> Even in the biggest market (Germany) the software houses jump over
> to a faster train PC and Windows (see Borland, Technobox, etc.)...
> TT is not as powerful as IIfx or 486 (don't even think about
> NeXT)! Since 1985 ST & Amiga 'a fight between losers' (to be
> continued).
> Innovation and high tech is made by Bill Gates, Steve Jobs
> and others but not in Borregas Avenue...
> The old GDOS had only few driver...
> The new FSM-GDOS has not yet been released...
> ...but Adobe's Type Manager, Bitstream, True Type, etc.
> enjoy already the best critics as bestsellers in competitors'
> computer business community.
>
> It is really frustrating to support a TOS-based system for
> five year and to observe a very very slow progress (or degress?)...
>
I dont think that ATARI is doing so bad in Europe. The new technologies
like ST-Pad and a notebook Atari are a sign of a progress.
MsDos is not a good system, because its now 10(!) years old, and you
are more busy in finding the driver for ... that fits, than in working.
You cant compare the TT with the Next because the Next is approximately
2 times as expensive as the TT.
The ST is doing well at universities and DTP and things like that,
at least in germany.
 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
! Bitnet: ccc_ball@dulruu51.bitnet   Internet: ccc_ball@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de !
!     Joerg Ballschmiter  Gartenhalde 68  D-7900 ULM-Maehringen  GERMANY     !
!                         Chaos Computer Club ULM                            !
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 00:52:32 GMT
From: world!azog@uunet.uu.net (azog-thoth)
Subject: Mega STe wanted
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
Well, the title says it all... Looking for a Mega 2 (or 4) STe system.
Ive got a colour monitor, so all I need is the base unit. Hopefully
at a reasonable price :-) Or Ive some 'interesting' things for trade...
 
+---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
| Billy D'Augustine         | Close your eyes, what do you see? Dreams in   |
| azog@world.std.com        | rhyme with reality.  -  Fates Warning         |
+---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 07:48:12 GMT
From: mcsun!unido!sbsvax!sbuvax!univwa@uunet.uu.net (Bernhard Stumpf)
Subject: Multitasking for ST (to sell)
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
   ***   Multitasking for ST ***   Multitasking for ST ***
 
Ar you interested in doing *multitasking* on your ST ?
 
 
 
So one possibility is to achieve my:
 
 
            MultiGEM by PAM's Software
            ==========================                  for 125.- DM
 
            (actual version V1.1)
 
[works very well on ST, but the it occured to often that my TT system
 crashed...]
 
 
 
please contact:
 
   Bernhard Stumpf, University of the Saarland, D-6600 Saarbruecken
 
   phone: ++49-681-302-41.43   ///  e-mail: bestu@sbuvax.rz.uni-sb.de
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 10:08:23 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!qmw-dcs!icdoc!syma!grahamt@uunet.uu.net (Graham S Thomas)
Subject: STalker/STeno v3.0?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
From article <59956@aurs01.UUCP>, by whitcomb@aurs01.UUCP (Jonathan Whitcomb):
> I've heard Gribnif usually has outrageous upgrade fees... one of the
> reasons I steer clear of their products.
 
That's not been my experience.  I think the upgrade fee from NeoDesk2 to
NeoDesk3 was $20.  I thought that was quite reasonable, given the extra
features.
 
Of course, as with all too many topics mentioned in this newsgroup, what
counts as reasonable, inexpensive, etc. depends a lot on where you live.
In general, we in the UK seem to pay more for lots of computer-related
things, so this obviously colours my perception of Gribnif's prices.
 
I've found their support to be good over the years - I think I'd be
willing to pay a little something for that alone.
 
Graham
--
Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Building, Univ. of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK
Email: grahamt@syma.sussex.ac.uk   Phone: +44 273 678165  Fax: +44 273 685865
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 04:04:11 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Bryan_Jones_Woodwo
 rth@arizona.edu
Subject: Stealth (was STalker 3.0/Flash upgrade?)
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
Tell me more about Stealth.  What features does it offer, etc etc?
 
Thanks.
Bryan_Jones_Woodworth@cup.portal.com
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 06:24:10 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!chaph.usc.edu!aludra.usc.edu!jjung@arizona.edu
 (Robert Jung)
Subject: Stealth (was STalker 3.0/Flash upgrade?)
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
In article <43995@cup.portal.com> Bryan_Jones_Woodworth@cup.portal.com writes:
>Tell me more about Stealth.  What features does it offer, etc etc?
 
  If you have seen the shareware program "Hagterm", you've seen Stealth. It
is just an attempt to sell HT for money. Unfortunately (IMO), Stealth demands
too many resources and offers too few features (and no innovations) to be
worth considering.
 
  File transfer protocols? ASCII, XModem, XModem 1K, XModem CRC, YModem,
YModem G, and ZModem (via running XYZ.TTP seperately). Terminal emulation?
VT-52, VT-100 (which doesn't work properly), and ANSI (which doesn't work
correctly either). Oh, it's also TT-incompatable, requires at least 1
megabyte of memory, and offers one of the most confusing, amateurish
user-interfaces ever seen on the ST.
 
  There's a lot of hyped-up "frills" for Stealth (when a file transfer is
done, it doesn't ring the bell, it plays a musical song -- whee), but it's
all air and no innovation. I myself say that a large part for its problems
is that it's written in GFA BASIC ("real programmers don't program in BASIC",
as the old joke goes), and the author is too busy trying to "out-feature"
Flash! that he forgets about solid design.
 
  (Notice that Stealth is being sold by the PDC [Public-Domain Company],
which has a known bias for GFA-BASIC-written products. "So what if it's not
good? It's written in GFA, let's sell it!")
 
  Stay with Flash, Interlink, or Uniterm. Those are proven products that
cost less, do more, and maintain your respect in ST software. Stealth is
nowhere near the level of quality of those products, though it does offer
more air than the rest...
 
                                                --R.J.
                                                B-)
 
P.S. Yes, I have seen it. Yes, I have used it. Yes, I don't recommend it.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    # ## #              Send replies to jjung@nunki.usc.edu
    # ## #
   ## ## ##             I wrote this. If you've got a comment, give
####  ##  ####          it to me and let's cut out the middleman.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri,  5 JUL 91 12:17:30 +0100
From: YF_LI%VAX.ACS.OPEN.AC.UK@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: SUBSCRIBE
To: info-atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
Sorry if this is a repeat, not sure if first message made it.
 
YAN FA  LI
 
------------------------------
 
Date: Fri,  5 JUL 91 12:20:08 +0100
From: YF_LI@vax.acs.open.ac.uk
Subject: SUBSCRIBE - Yan Fa LI
To: info-atari16 <info-atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu>
 
 
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 02:25:42 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!samsung!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.a
 u!uqcspe!cs.uq.oz.au!warwick@arizona.edu (Warwick Allison)
Subject: This week's program
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
In <43965@cup.portal.com> Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes:
 
>Comments about "DC Homey"..
>
>I dunno... suppose you're in a completely "BrainDead" application that
>doesn't process mouse input properly..?
 
If Alt-arrow key doesn't work, then DC Homey probably wont either.
 
>(I can think of a zillion examples...  you forget to put a disk in A: and
>the program just freaks out...   you get a dialogue box that wants you
>to "Abort or Continue" with the default set to Continue.. and naturally
>the mouse pointer is disabled...  what'cha gonna do..?)
>
>Hit ALT CTL LSHIFT H and the mouse is returned to a known starting position..
 
I usually just move the mouse (unseen) to one of the screen corners.
 
However, rather than complaining about the program, we should be SUGGESTING
ideas.  I notice DC GTP - a program all the non-CLI users wanted.  Well done
DC - and thanks for listenning!
 
Warwick.
--
  _-_|\       warwick@cs.uq.oz.au
 /     *  <-- Computer Science Department,
 \_.-._/      University of Queensland,
      v       Brisbane, AUSTRALIA.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 10:55:33 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!snorkelwa
 cker.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de!rusmv1!news@arizona.edu (Joerg
 Ballschmiter)
Subject: TT <--> MsDos
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
Hi!
Are there any Hardware-MsDos emulators that run on the TT ?
Do they use the hardware of the TT? (68030,...).
Do I need for (S)VGA a special (S)VGA monitor, or is it possible to use
the TTM 194?
Please reply by e-mail.
Thanks in regard,
                 Joerg.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
! Bitnet: ccc_ball@dulruu51.bitnet   Internet: ccc_ball@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de !
!     Joerg Ballschmiter  Gartenhalde 68  D-7900 ULM-Maehringen  GERMANY     !
!                         Chaos Computer Club ULM                            !
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 10:37:33 GMT
From:
 noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!snorkelwacker.mit
 .edu!ira.uka.de!sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de!rusmv1!news@arizona.edu (Joerg
 Ballschmiter)
Subject: TT Monitors
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
Hi all!
I have a question about monitors for the TT:
Is the TTM 194 a color or a monochrome monitor?
What monitor would you recommand me?
Is it possible to use (S)VGA with the SuperCharger + with a VGA card
and a TTM194?
What about the SM194?
Is the 1248*800 resolution monochrome or color?
Is it possible to use (S)VGA monitors for the TT?
Please reply by e-mail.
Ciao,
     Joerg.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
! Bitnet: ccc_ball@dulruu51.bitnet   Internet: ccc_ball@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de !
!     Joerg Ballschmiter  Gartenhalde 68  D-7900 ULM-Maehringen  GERMANY     !
!                         Chaos Computer Club ULM                            !
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 08:19:32 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!voder!wlbr!lonex.radc.af.mil!blackbird.a
 fit.af.mil!bhodges@arizona.edu (Bill Hodges)
Subject: Wargames
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
I've recently started playing wargames (hex grid boardgames) and am interested
in your experiences with ST computer wargames.
 
send info,
Bill
bhodges@afit.af.mil
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Bill Hodges                    |  Me?  People who speak for the Air Force get
 bhodges@blackbird.afit.af.mil  |  paid a lot more than I do! I just work here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 05:08:10 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Dave_Ninj
 ajr_Flory@arizona.edu
Subject: what Atari DOES have
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
I use a MacII xc with a laserwriter IIntx every day at work and it is a
_dog_ speedwise compared to the Mega and SLM804 I have at home. It doesn't
matter how fast the printer itself it, its choked to death by the appletalk
connection. The Atari DMA rate of over a meg a second is hard to beat.
Ataris have problems but speed of laser output is one area the mac and IBM
don't compete. I use them all.
 
------------------------------
 
Date: 5 Jul 91 14:02:00 GMT
From:
 noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!galileo.cc.ro
 chester.edu!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!lchd_ltd@arizona.edu (----* Ho Ling Cherd
 *----)
Subject: what Atari DOES have
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
 
In article <5314@orbit.cts.com> chucks@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Erik Funkenbusch)
 writes:
>CSULLOGG@CRL.AECL.CA writes:
>>I have an ST and a TT. Both of these can use something the Mac, the PC and
>>the Amiga cannot - the Atari SLM605 laser. For DTP, nothing can rival the
>>speed of output and the number of applications that make use of that speed
>>like Atari DTP packages.
>
>
>huh?  you've obviosly never used a Mac with a LaserWriter IIntx.  those
>puppies have an 030 in them.  by the way, have you seen the LaserJet III's?
>they have variable resolutions.
>
Howv much does a LaserWriter IIntx cost? What kind of technology had Steve
Job chosen on his NeXT Laser printer?
 
------------------------------
 
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
******************************
